News

Anti-vaccine advocates flexing muscle

State Sen. Richard Pan, center, at a Sept. 13 discussion of children's health care issues. (Photo: Scott Duncan, Capitol Weekly)

The anti-vaccine movement is alive and well in California.

Despite legal requirements for vaccination and a preponderance of clinical evidence showing that vaccines are effective in protecting children from measles, mumps and rubella, among other diseases, there are pockets of resistance across the state, according to state Sen. Richard Pan, D-Sacramento.

Sen. Pan’s legislation makes California among the most stringent vaccine-mandate state in the country.

And oddly enough, at least some, if not most, of the pockets are located in the more affluent, well-educated areas of the state – places such as Marin and Santa Monica, says Pan, the Legislature’s leading vaccine proponent.

Pan is a Sacramento-area pediatrician-turned-legislator who authored SB 277, the 2015 law that eliminated parents’ ability to use “personal belief” as a way to avoid vaccinations for their children.

As it moved through the Legislature, hundreds of individuals and numerous organizations — including the California Chiropractic Association and California Nurses for Ethical Standards — opposed the measure, according to a Senate analysis. Supporters included the California Medical Association, the California Hospital Association and the Academy of Family Physicians, among dozens of other groups.

Now, exemptions may be granted only on the basis of medical necessity. Children must have evidence of vaccination, or the medical exemption, to attend a public school.

Pan’s legislation makes California among the most stringent vaccine-mandated state in the country.

Pan was interviewed after participating in Capitol Weekly’s recent Children’s Health Conference in Sacramento.

Do the pockets of vaccine-resistant parents really pose a health threat to the rest of the state?

“It’s possible,” Pan says. “It’s confined to pockets, but because we live in such a mobile society, a carrier leaving a pocket can spread infection to new pockets. The solution is to shrink the pockets.”

“The scientific evidence shows that the vaccination status of a child is not a significant risk to immuno-compromised schoolchildren.” — Dr. Shira Miller

Ryan Spencer, a senior vice president at the Mercury political consulting firm, which represents a number of medical groups, agreed.

“There would still be the risk of an outbreak anytime we have those risks,’” he said.

The vulnerable include students who can’t be vaccinated because of medical conditions, such as impaired immune systems, or whose vaccinations for various reasons don’t protect them from infection.

Spencer said the anti-vaccine movement appears stronger in affluent areas. “It’s because they haven’t been exposed to much illness,” he says. “It’s not like Darfur, where you see disaster up close.”

But some remain skeptical about the need for vaccinations in certain cases and wonder whether parents are being pressured to vaccinate their children.

“The scientific evidence shows that the vaccination status of a child is not a significant risk to immuno-compromised schoolchildren. Therefore, it is both unscientific and unethical to use coercive measures to increase vaccination rates,”  Dr. Shira Miller, founder and president of the Physicians for Informed Consent said in a July 2 written statement.

Miller said Physicians for Informed Consent is “not ideologically pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine, but rather is pro-health, pro-ethics and pro-informed consent in vaccination (like any other medical procedure),” according to the group’s website.

Some groups have put together lists of physicians and chiropractors who may be contacted by parents seeking medical exemptions from vaccinations. One such list contains names and addresses of 46 California physicians and chiropractors.

“They are sincere in their beliefs, and I’m sure they want the best for their children,” Spencer told Capitol Weekly. “They believe what they’re doing is the right thing.”

Editor’s Note: Corrects 16th graf by deleting Miller quote linking vaccination and death, adds opposition and support of legislation, 5th graf; recasts 15th-17th grafs to delete reference to PIC as “anti-vaccine.”  

 


  • Lucy Hill

    It’s no surprise that it’s the educated and wealthy people not vaccinating, they are the ones who’ve done the research, they know vaccines are not based on sound science, unfortunately vaccines are a far bigger risk than the childhood viruses.

    • White_and_Nerdy

      You should think a bit more about your argument….the error will probably become quickly obvious….

      W&N

    • john tucci

      I have a friend who is a surgeon but does not know how to mow his lawn, what does that tell you?

      • AutismDadd

        You have but one friend.

        • Proponent

          ‘You have one more friend than I do.’

          ^ FTFY, AutismDadd.

          Helping others.. it’s .. what I do.

      • AutismDadd

        I see you are part of the skepticalratturd ilk. EW!

      • Lucy Hill

        He has no interest in mowing lawns, the same as many have no interest in learning the truth about vaccines

        • Brian

          Irony?

          Wasn’t it you who stated vaccines are more dangerous than infectious disease? Hint: Smallpox alone has killed more people in the last century than ISIS, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, combined. Thanks to vaccines, No one has had smallpox in decades.

          Some people just have no interest in the truth.

    • Mike Stevens

      Thanks for demonstrating that you haven’t joined the ranks of the educated… I think you’ve been “researching” in completely the wrong place.
      Proctoscopes have more prosaic purposes you know.

    • tomonthebay

      Wrong.

  • Judith

    Show me the science behind vaccines. No vaccinated/unvaccinated study done by the government. They refuse to do it. When pharma gained immunity from prosecution for vaccine damage the 1986 act entrusted HHS to do safety studies and supply a report every 2 years. Robert Kennedy asked for these reports but they were not done. HHS is now being sued. This shows how poor is vaccine surveillance – safety studies are not being done. You cannot claim they are safe. The recent 2 deaths over the past year of babies in Samoa within minutes of getting the vaccine is testament that they are not safe. The Prime Minister of Samoa has come out saying his own child was damaged from a vaccine. Hardly any news about it.

    • White_and_Nerdy

      Gosh Judith….there you go again!

      Just like all the other times the facts have been provided to you:

      Pharma does NOT have immunity…but you already knew this…..

      In fact the anti-vacc fraud has been well detailed in Civil Court cases…but you already knew this….

      Once again you provide a completely dishonest posting….predicated on folks being too clueless to read correctly.

      Hey! That is just like all your anti-vacc postings!

      W&N

    • Mike Stevens

      “Show me the science behind vaccines. No vaccinated/unvaccinated study done by the government. They refuse to do it….”

      Judith, this comment of yours is one of your stock “copy-paste” efforts that you have repeatedly posted on every vaccine article you have ever found on the internet.
      Here is an example… word for word…
      https://disqus.com/home/discussion/npr-kstx/attitudes_about_child_vaccinations_among_texans_vary_by_income_education/#comment-4017705876
      And it has been repeatedly answered/refuted.
      I for one have done so several times, and others have also addressed your points.
      Please stop spamming your antivaccine propaganda.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

        On a completely unrelated note, I found an anti-vax site that actually got something right.

        Can we all look out our window and check for blood-red moons and the like?

        • Mike Stevens

          Would that be the piece on the whistleblower?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM
          • Mike Stevens

            So where is it?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            At one point, they say the CDC says vaccinations cannot harm preterm infants. When I went to go look it up, it does actually say that. So yeah, one thing correct. Doesn’t mean the rest of the article isn’t a bunch of nonsense though.

          • AutismDadd

            Check CSOFOTOM’s colon

          • Judith

            Excellent article by Jeremy Hammond – highly recommended:

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Yes, highly recommended for sheer novelty value.

          • mark

            interesting

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Yep. Recommended for sheer novelty value.

          • Proponent

            Pet peeve of mine, Jen.. could you replace/edit the active link with an archived one?

            Don’t send *any* traffic towards that cretin, simply put.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            I wasn’t expecting it to actually work. And I’ve got stuff to do but I’ll bork the link as a quick fix?

          • Proponent
          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Okay, archived link edited in.

      • Dorit Reiss

        Also, claiming that the HHS lawsuit shows no safety studies are done is simply untrue. http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2018/07/alternative-facts-from-court-the-anti-vaccine-edition.html

        • Judith

          From your article

          “The natural implication is that such reports were never filed. Why they were never filed, I don’t know. It certainly may be a failure on the part of the DHHS – and on the part of the Congressional Committees that did not follow up – and the natural result would be for DHHS to start filing such reports. There may be more to it.” I don’t think that is good enough Dorot.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Dorit answered your question. The reports should have been filed. We do not know why they were not filed. It could be that another agency submitted them.

            We know, for certain, there are many vaccine safety studies.

          • Judith

            I know why the reports were not filed and could not be found – they were not done. We have no safety studies period. Corruption is rife and endemic in HHS, CDC.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Then what of the vast array of safety studies in the VSD and PRISM? I posted links to both in my other comment to you. Hundreds of safety studies done by USA alone.

          • Judith

            Post your best one….

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Post my best what? There are hundreds of studies at those links. READ.

          • AutismDadd

            Maybe Kathy, Dorit and Mike were in charge of filing those reports?

          • JoeFarmer

            “Corruption is rife and endemic in HHS, CDC.”

            Uh-huh. Hitchens’ Razor applies here: That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

          • Ron Roy

            The CDC receives millions in funding from pharmaceutical companies.

          • JoeFarmer

            Prove it, Ron.

            Or are you just going to run away like you did when you were challenged on your claim that the, “CDC is a corporation”?

          • Damo

            As soon as someone provides facts and evidence, Ron is mysteriously silent.

          • AutismDadd

            And the industry donated 26 million to CDC’s Viral Hepatitis Action Coalition and the CDC Foundation. Yes CDC is a registered charity MEANING it can accept “donations” from Big Pharma. Reminds me of Autism Speaks, when they sold out by becoming a charity. CDC made 137.8 million in 2016 from patent royalties.

          • JoeFarmer

            Ron, you’ve had a full day to prove your claim. Why so quiet? Don’t like to get caught lying? Don’t lie then.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Jeanne Lenzer, associate editor of the British Medical Journal, has published an investigative report showing how the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
            (CDC) is not honest when publishing disclaimers in their studies
            stating that “they have no financial interests or other relationships
            with the manufacturers of commercial products.”

            ”Lenzer goes on to document in her investigative report how the CDC has been receiving millions of dollars in “industry gifts and funding” since at least 1983”.
            Is that proof enough? If not I can give you more.

          • JoeFarmer

            No, that is not proof. You once again made an unattributed copy pasta post. No surprise, though.

          • AutismDadd

            JoeFarmer the troll, who adds ZERO to the conversation.

          • JoeFarmer

            Still nothing from Ron Roy. Looks like he’s been caught lying yet again! Not a surprise, though.

          • AutismDadd

            Its time EVERYONE blocked this troll JoeFarmer. He’s all about abuse. After you read this block him. We need to shut this clown down and freeze him out.

          • Proponent

            Its time EVERYONE blocked this troll AutismDadd. He’s all about abuse.
            After you read this block him. We need to shut this clown down and
            freeze him out.

          • tomonthebay

            He is definitely a clown. He can’t grasp the simplest concepts.

          • JoeFarmer

            He truly has absolutely no redeeming value as a person.

          • shay simmons

            block him

            What took you so long? 😉

          • Acleron

            He is irritating but a useful marker, anybody who upticks him can be labelled as terminally stupid.

          • Proponent

            And here’s the kicker to this lil’ outburst/episode … AutismDadd is still responding to JoeFarmer’s post.

          • john tucci

            He does occasionly try to hump my leg, but I just kick him off.

          • AutismDadd

            Ron isn’t paid, so he can’t be here like you are.

          • AutismDadd

            Check it out folks. Pharmer wants to talk nonsense rather than accept that vaccine information wasn’t made public, and w/o an explanation.

          • AutismDadd

            They are not filed on purpose. How naive to think some error took place.

          • AutismDadd

            Oh so you’re going to INVENT scenarios and excuses rather than question why vaccine information was NOT made available.

          • schpadoinkle

            lol

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Why are you LOLing?

          • schpadoinkle

            cause you funny!

        • AutismDadd

          Are you insane? Your link is garbage.

      • Judith

        Never refuted ever

      • AutismDadd

        Are you a moderator Mike? Heaven Forbid!

    • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

      Judith, no one is suing HHS. ICAN and RFKjr filed a suit against HHS to get access to the reports about vaccine safety. Both sides stipulated the documents ICAN sought are not available.

      http://icandecide.org/government/ICAN-HHS-Stipulated-Order-July-2018.pdf

      But, that only means those documents are not available. Does not mean Congress was not given other reports and, certainly, there is a huge array of vaccine safety studies in the Vaccine Safety Datalink.

      • Judith

        You claim that the documents ICAN sought are “not available” can you explain why such documents which should be publicly available in the interest of public safety are not available…

        • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

          HHS should have been submitting biennial reports to Congress on vaccine safety. I cannot explain why they did not. We do not know if another agency fulfilled that role or not. What we know, for sure, is there has been many, many vaccine safety studies done in the USA, all of which can be found in the VSD and PRISM.

          • Judith

            You cannot explain why they didn’t. We know that the government gave blanket indemnity to the pharma industry against being sued for bad vaccines – thus you cannot ask a fox to look after the hen house. Therefore where is the government body that is doing the studies. We now find out there is none.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            No one gave blanket indemnity to pharma industry. You can sue them if their is a product defect. And since there is a HUGE body of vaccine safety data, who’s to say Congress was not given reports by someone else?

            Can you tell me which part of Congress was to be given the reports? Which committee?

            “where is the government body that is doing the studies?”

            I told you already – the vaccine safety datalink and PRISM. You are incredibly dense.

            “The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) is a collaborative project between CDC’s Immunization Safety Office and eight health care organizations. The VSD started in 1990 and continues today in order to monitor safety of vaccines and conduct studies about rare and serious adverse events following immunization. The VSD uses electronic health data from each participating site. This includes information on vaccines: the kind of vaccine given to each patient, date of vaccination, and other vaccinations given on the same day. The VSD also uses information on medical illnesses that have been diagnosed at doctors’ offices, urgent care visits, emergency department visits, and hospital stays. The VSD conducts vaccine safety studies based on questions or concerns raised from the medical literature and reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). When there are new vaccines that have been recommended for use in the United States or if there are changes in how a vaccine is recommended, the VSD will monitor the safety of these vaccines.”

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/index.html

            “The Post-Licensure Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring (PRISM) program is the immunization safety monitoring component of FDA’s Mini-Sentinel project, a program to actively monitor the safety of medical products using electronic health information. FDA sought to assess the surveillance capabilities of this large claims-based distributed database for vaccine safety surveillance by characterizing the underlying data.”

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24331080

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Heck, you can sue them for a design defect even providing said design defect was avoidable.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Judith, can you the cite law giving blanket indemnity to the pharma industry against being sued for bad vaccines? Remember, you used the word ‘blanket’ so I’m not interested in the pillowcase of unavoidable design defects.

          • shay simmons

            We know that the government gave blanket indemnity to the pharma industry against being sued for bad vaccines

            Here – again – is an explanation of the NVICP program, which gives limited immunity, in the US only, to manufacturers of certain vaccines, under certain circumstances. Pity you don’t seem to be able to grasp this.

            https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

          • Verna Lang

            How many times has that piece of misinformation that pharma cannot be sued for anything been dragged out by Judith? No matter how many times it has been rendered dead and buried by correcting it to say that the vaccine producer can still be sued for contamination through negligence or mistakes made in the formulation of the vaccine? Yet we know Judith will drag that rotting corpse of misinformation from its grave yet again to present it as some sort of argument. Disposing of the zombies of the ‘Walking Dead’ seems to be a far simpler and final task.

          • JoeFarmer

            Being an anti-vaxxer requires abandonment of anything remotely resembling ethical behavior. Same is true for the anti-GMO bunch.

          • AutismDadd

            You need to up your meds Pharmer

          • Acleron

            That is true of all who want to promote a belief system without evidence. Seen it with homeprats, anti moonlanding, truthers, etc boring etc. Many are harmless loonies but antivaxxers are dangerous.

          • AutismDadd

            Block JoeFarmer

          • Acleron

            This from the guy who whines about freedom of speech.

          • AutismDadd

            Verna who denies shilling for pharma, showing once again she does just that.

          • tomonthebay

            Verna stating facts that Adudd doesn’t like.

          • AutismDadd

            tomontheweekendshift answers for Verna

          • Acleron

            According to the boy, anyone who disproves an antivaxxer lie is a shill.

          • tomonthebay

            Yeah, I know. It is such a silly and pathetic strategy that the anti-vaxxers pull out whenever they are shown to be ignorant or flat-out lying.

          • AutismDadd

            Have ANY actual examples??

          • AutismDadd

            That would be a lying shill….like you

          • Acleron

            Except you have never, ever found a lie by me, that makes your accusations, lies and you a serial liar just on that one issue alone.

          • AutismDadd

            Point out my lies then. And don’t make it up.

          • Acleron

            That would be a lying shill….like you

            For which you have zero evidence, as always. You obviously lie so much you don’t know when you are lying.

          • AutismDadd

            Its an allegation, NOT a lie.

          • tomonthebay

            It is a lie.

          • AutismDadd

            Its a suggestion

          • tomonthebay

            It is a lie.

          • AutismDadd

            Supposition

          • tomonthebay

            No, it is another of your lies.

          • AutismDadd

            Just kidding

          • tomonthebay

            No you aren’t. You routinely lie.

          • AutismDadd

            I’m a prank

          • tomonthebay

            You are a blatant and shameless liar.

          • AutismDadd

            tom you are so cruel. Ever consider being analyzed?

          • tomonthebay

            Too darn bad if you don’t like being told the truth. As to my question about your being a vegan, you obviously aren’t as they can not help but tell everyone.

          • AutismDadd

            I’m a private guy, don’t like to brag about myself like you meat eaters.

          • tomonthebay

            Oh puleeeeeze. You aren’t fooling anyone dudley.

          • AutismDadd

            Darn? Are you cussin boy?

          • Acleron

            A rather pathetic baseless allegation, you lie to divert from the fact that you have no evidence for your silly claims.

          • AutismDadd

            Anyone who claims there is NO evidence lies by omission

          • Acleron

            So the boy lies again to draw attention away from the fact he cannot provide any evidence.

          • AutismDadd

            You imply you don’t harass cia….LIE

          • tomonthebay

            Calling out Cia’s lies is not harassment.

          • AutismDadd

            Poor tom. Get some warm milk and finish your puzzle. Try not getting too excited.

          • AutismDadd

            Verna is gossiping

          • JoeFarmer

            Oh, look! It’s yet another example of sociopath Judith’s pathological lying. Must be a day ending in, “y”.

          • AutismDadd

            Its called a COVER UP Kathy.

          • Judith

            Say the words COVER UP – Kathy…it isn’t that hard

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            What is your evidence of a COVER UP, Judith? How do you account for other countries not finding the data if the COVER UP by America is true? Why are there girls on the Vaxxed Bus if the COVER UP regarding the CDC whistleblower that is claimed is true?

      • AutismDadd

        Prove it

    • Lee O. Welter

      Read Suzanne Humphries’ book DISSOLVING ILLUSIONS: http://www.dissolvingillusions.com

      • Mike Stevens

        …and it will dissolve your brain.

        • Judith

          Mike would love you not to read any books by the highly qualified Suzanne Humphries – please do not read it – you will never get the poisoned needle again.

          • Mike Stevens

            You are right Judith, I don’t want people to get their “information” about vaccines from a book written by a person who qualified as a doctor and did some renal medicine [in other words someone wholly unqualified and inexperienced in any field of practice or research relevant to vaccination] before dropping out of medical practice to concentrate on making a lucrative career out of spreading misinformation about vaccines and endorsing homeopathy.

            I’d rather they got information from credible sources which present information from specialists with specific expertise in vaccination.

          • Judith

            Why then does Dorit constantly quote Skeptical Raptor (Aka Michael Simpson? not a doctor. Why do you trust studies done by pharmaceutical companies which have a huge conflict of interest? Why do you trust the CDC who is the largest purchaser of vaccines in the world, and their budget to purchase vaccines from pharmaceutical companies was over $5.1 BILLION in 2018, and is set to increase to over $5.4 BILLION in 2019.

            Can we trust the CDC to oversee vaccine safety with such a blatant conflict of interest?
            We have the HHS who have not done any studies into the safety as they were required to do. Strange I guess it depends on who pulls the purse strings.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Why do you trust the CDC who is the largest purchaser of vaccines in
            the world….Can we trust the CDC to oversee vaccine safety with such a blatant conflict of interest?”

            You have a decidedly warped sense of what constitutes a “conflict of interest”, Judith.

            1. The CDC buys these vaccines so it can distribute them completely free of charge to children who otherwise could not afford to get them.

            The Vaccines For Children (VFC) program is a federally funded program that provides vaccines at no cost to children who might not otherwise be vaccinated because of inability to pay. CDC buys vaccines at a discount and distributes them to grantees—i.e., state health departments and certain local and territorial public health agencies—which in turn distribute them at no charge to those private physicians’ offices and public health clinics registered as VFC providers.

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/index.html
            2. Since they are buying vaccines to the tune of several million dollars, the CDC ensure:

            (a) That the product they are buying is safe and effective, and

            (b) That they get value for money and do not give the pharma companies a single cent more than absolutely necessary.

          • Judith

            Can you post me one study that the CDC has done in the past 10 years to prove that vaccines are safe and effective. The last study on the MMR was 10 years and it was proven to be a fraud.

          • Mike Stevens

            You’ve had it explained to you multiple times, Judith.
            The only MMR studies that were “frauds” were Wakefield’s (retracted) and Hooker’s analysis of the CDC data (retracted).

            PS: Your failure to discuss the very topic theme you raised (CDC paying for vaccines) is quite telling… Does that mean you accept you were totally wrong about your claim, or do you want to come back with a further response?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Can we discuss how the UK health financing system works for a bit, Mike?

          • AutismDadd

            Take note readers. Judith asked Mike for evidence. Mike deflected and became insulting instead of providing it. Why would Mike avoid providing the evidence asked for? Can Mike Stevens be trusted?

          • roscoe

            Where did Mike become insulting AD? Quote me from the above post. Your comments become worse later in conversations. Do you get tired ? Perhaps a rest is in order. Just thinking of your well being.

          • AutismDadd

            Sounds like you are weak in reading comprehension.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Can you post me one study that the CDC has done in the past 10 years to prove that vaccines are safe and effective.”

            Sure, no problem. The CDC has looked at many vaccines in different situations. Here is one study about Tdap immunogenicity and safety in pregnancy…
            https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02209623.
            Its results were published last week. Is that “recent” enough for you?

            Would you like to discuss it in more detail, or would you like to do what you always do, Judith, namely move the goalposts, or quickly try and change the topic?

          • Ron Roy

            That study’s conclusion:” Further research is needed to provide definitive evidence of the safety and efficacy of Tdap vaccination during pregnancy.”

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m not saying this was definitive, Ron. Just that it is a recent (2 weeks ago) study on safety by the CDC.
            That’s all Judith asked for.
            You want more studies, I’ll get them for you if you want…

          • tomonthebay

            He won’t know what to make of them if you do.

          • AutismDadd

            Good one. It has Mike back peddling and stuttering

          • Ron Roy

            Do you think he knows that the CDC receives funding from drug companies?

          • Proponent

            Hey! Ronald P. Roy?

            Still waiting for you to produce this study..

            Ron Roy: “There were may calves involved in the study I read about. Although I will have to find that study to give you an EXACT number. And no you don’t even need 100 calves. That would be ridiculous.”

            … …

            Bonus points if you can put forth a cogent response as to the why “you don’t even need 100 calves”.

          • AutismDadd

            Next time he pulls his head out I’ll ask him.

          • Mike Stevens

            No it isn’t Ron.
            You may be looking at a different study.
            The one we are discussing has the conclusion I pasted above in the abstract.
            Here is the conclusion from the actual paper.
            As you can see, it is quite definitive. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9595ca3ed8db17c7415dcd45515613d5ae190b67e8ae918a8dd8e7f2ec17ad4b.png

          • tomonthebay

            Confusing Ron with facts again I see.

          • AutismDadd

            Mike goes with the kettle vs pot gambit. Its so hilarious to see this fraudulent attempt to imply he ( Mike ) isn’t as guilty as anyone he accuses, if not more so.

          • ciaparker2

            M., this study has not been completed and the results have not been published. You didn’t notice all the “will”s?

            “Prior Tdap/Td/TT history will be verified by medical record review when possible. There will be an emphasis on enrolling women who have received Tdap before the current pregnancy, to the greatest extent possible. Non-pregnant women who are receiving their initial Tdap will also be recruited.

            Injection-site (local) and systemic reaction data will be assessed on the vaccination day and during the 7 days following vaccination using either identical web-based or paper diaries, depending on the preference of the study participant.

            Pregnant women will be followed until delivery with comprehensive obstetric and neonatal outcomes obtained from review of the electronic medical record.”

          • Ron Roy

            The CDC gets millions of dollars from the pharmaceutical industry and you expect them to bite the hand that feeds them?

          • Mike Stevens

            The CDC pays billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry.
            Haven’t you bothered reading what Judith said?
            (I don’t blame you actually)

          • Ron Roy

            It works BOTH ways. The CDC gets funding from drug companies and in return they buy vaccines from them. Capish?

          • Proponent

            OMG! Ronald P. Roy!

            Fail! So.. much.. fail!

            hahahahahahaha..

          • Ron Roy

            Can We Trust the CDC? British Medical Journal Reveals CDC Lies About Ties to Big Pharma?
            ”Jeanne Lenzer, associate editor of the British Medical Journal, has published an investigative report showing how the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
            (CDC) is not honest when publishing disclaimers in their studies
            stating that “they have no financial interests or other relationships
            with the manufacturers of commercial products.”
            ”Despite the agency’s disclaimer, the CDC does receive millions of
            dollars in industry gifts and funding, both directly and indirectly, and
            several recent CDC actions and recommendations have raised questions
            about the science it cites, the clinical guidelines it promotes, and the
            money it is taking.”

            ”Lenzer writes that in 1983 the CDC was “authorised” to accept this
            funding from pharmaceutical companies, and that in 1995 Congress
            actually passed legislation that was signed into law by President Bill
            Clinton “to encourage relationships between industry and the CDC.”
            You can stop that hysterical laughter now and start crying. LOL

          • AutismDadd

            The CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL has a mandate. The conflict of interest lies there.

          • schpadoinkle

            this suzanne humphries he talks about, a kidney specialist of many years who got in trouble for noticing, and mentioning , that her patients got worse after receiving vaccines.

            criticise vaccines and get demoted, laud them and you become a honorary ”doctor”! 🙂

          • Proponent

            shpadoinkle; aka sabelmouse: “criticise vaccines and get..”

            … in on the scams preying off of gullible and/or distressed parents and their children.

            Seems to be working for Andy Wakefield.

            And he might just represent the best practice model.. only requirement? Utter callous disregard for your fellow humans.

          • AutismDadd

            Congressional hearings have requested vac vs unvac research from CDC which has NEVER been done. Says all one needs to know about CDC.

          • AutismDadd

            CDC seems content with altering the role of disease exposure. It takes credit for things it hasn’t been part of. Obviously CDC follows the logic its minions repeat in the forums. There are less deaths and less serious illness through vaccination than through natural exposure to the illness. To CDC its a win. It celebrates its victories while downplaying those maimed and killed in the process.

          • AutismDadd

            Allegations from a vaccine shill / troll? Hardly a worthy endorsement.

          • JoeFarmer

            Why is every anti-vaxxer a pathological liar?

          • AutismDadd

            They aren’t, but you are Pharmer.

          • Acleron

            Point to a single lie made by Joe Farmer. Of course you won’t be able to do so and yet again prove that you are the liar.

          • AutismDadd

            Every thing is liar this liar that with you. Joe is a useless troll. You should block him.

          • Acleron

            Thanks for proving my point, you can never back up your accusations and that makes you the liar.

          • AutismDadd

            Makes you the whiny baby

          • Acleron

            Whenever an antivaxxer says ‘highly qualified’ it is worth investigating. Humphries was a nephrologist and has zero qualifications in immunology, epidemiology or vaccination. Since she left medicine she has bought into many zero evidenced belief systems including homeopathy. She is now highly qualified as a loon.

          • FallsAngel

            And, Suz has an entry in the “Encyclopedia of American Loons”.

            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html

          • AutismDadd

            But doctors who don’t train as vaccine experts are called vaccine experts.

        • AutismDadd

          Grow up Mike.

      • john tucci

        “Suzanne Humphries”? surely you are joking. She is a joke.

      • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

        I read it. 50% of it is cut and paste cherry picked drivel. There is a reason it is self published! She and her co-author cherry picked everything they could find to validate their argument, including Leciester as a reason that smallpox vaccine didn’t actually work. It’s lame! Badly written book. No editor would have allowed it to be published.

      • JGC

        That wouldn’t be the same Suzanne Humphries who ‘s entry #783 in the Encyclopedia of American Loons, whose ‘evidence ‘ is entirely anecdotal, and who embraces homeopathy and vitalism, would it?

        • Ron Roy

          The Encyclopedia of American Loons is a good place to find doctors who don’t tow the pharmaceutical line. Any doctor or scientist who poses a threat to the profits of the MEDICAL MAFIA is entered into that ” encyclopedia. ”

          • JGC

            Humphries believes in homeopathy and vitalism, Ron. That’s way beyond not towing a line.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Homeopathy is popular not only among the French public but also among
            the French medical community. As many as 70 percent of physicians are
            receptive to homeopathy and consider it effective, at least 25,000
            physicians prescribe homeopathic medicines for their patients.
            Homeopathy is taught in at least seven medical schools: Besancon,
            Bordeaux, Lille, Limoges, Marseille, Paris-Nord, and Poitiers, and there
            are numerous postgraduate training programs. Courses in homeopathy are
            taught in 21 of France’s 24 schools of pharmacy, and also taught in two
            dental schools, two veterinary medical schools, and three schools of
            midwivery.” Source Huffington Post

            ”And it’s the same for most European countries. I can post them all but… ”Homeopathy is growing because of the good results that are shown in using this modality and: Because of homeopathy’s impressive and growing popularity in Europe,
            this alternative treatment poses a significant threat to conventional
            medicine, which may explain why there are ongoing efforts to attack it”
            (and homeopaths) using devious and questionably ethical means” Ten of thousands of European medical doctors practice homeopathy so I’d say Suzanne Humphries is in good company.

          • JGC

            Logical fallacy alert: your argument from popularity is duly noted and rejected, Ron. There are a lot of alt-med interventions that are popular in Rurope and elsewhere-homeopathy, acupuncture, reiki, etc.

            That doesn’t argue that they must also be safe and/or effective.

          • john tucci

            Yes Ron and a top Australian medical team debunked Homeopathy in 2015. There are at least another dozen countries that came up with the same conclusions, only the gullible believe in Homeopathy.

          • Ron Roy

            ”only the gullible believe in Homeopathy.” Only the gullible don’t realize that those” studies, ”that supposedly debunk homeopathy, are financed by pharnaceutical companies who fear the competition. Meanwhile: ”Approximately 10 percent of German doctors specialize in homeopathy,
            with approximately 10 percent more prescribing homeopathic remedies on
            occasion. In 1993, there were 1,993 medical doctors who had formally
            qualified in homeopathy, while in 2006, this number jumped over 100
            percent to 6,073 (20). In Germany there are 9,000 natural health
            practitioners called heilpraktikers in 1993 and over 20,000 in 2007.
            Approximately 20-30 of heilpraktikers specialize in homeopathy.”
            ”In a small clinical trial performed years ago, a group of test subjects
            who were deficient in human growth hormone, ranging in age from 45 years
            and up, were given the Vital HGH formulation. The results speak for
            themselves. During the five month clinical trial, the levels of HGH in
            the blood increased in every test subject, and more than doubled the
            average level of HGH.”

          • Proponent
          • Ron Roy

            Still have nothing logical to say I see.

          • Proponent

            Here you go, Ronald P. Roy.. something to keep on hand prior to posting a comment.. a checklist, if you will:

            https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/system/App/HomepageRow/images/000/000/002/original/poster.jpg

          • john tucci

            Now that you have presented him with the reading material, the problem now is getting him to read it.

          • Ron Roy

            You should follow your own advice.

          • john tucci

            Conventional medicine has nothing to fear Ron. It was a German that invented Homeopathy some 200 years ago so it is no surprise that the Germans support it but that does not mean that it works. Fact is Ron, Homeopathy has never been proven to work beyond the placebo effect and they have had 200 years to prove it but to no avail.

          • Ron Roy

            The Germans and the French, Italians, Swiss, Italians, Irish, Spanish, Indians etc. etc. Like it or not homeopathy is growing because it works and is non toxic. No matter how much money pharmaceutical companies spend in trying to prevent it’s use, by conducting phony studies that say it doesn’t work, their fighting a losing battle. The few doctors I’ve spoken to are sick and tired of the influence drug companies have over the medical profession.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Well, it’s a better place to look than Pubmed, for some reason.

        • Diet dee

          Wow someone believes in sonsometh that you don’t. Therefore everything that they have ever done is invalid. That’s not very scientific

          • JGC

            It’s not that they believe in something I don’t, Diet. It’s that they believe in something that is demonstrably false.
            Noting she has her own entry is a directed response to the previous posters attempt at an argument from authority logical fallacy.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM
  • Iggy Semmelweis

    “They are sincere in their beliefs.” It’s because their beliefs are the result of actually looking at the science behind vaccines.

    • White_and_Nerdy

      Fair enough…some folks “look” at the science.

      But as the comments here…and pretty much all the anti-vacc comments prove…”looking” is not the same as understanding…..or thinking clearly….or being honest.

      Cheers,

      W&N

      • Iggy Semmelweis

        I was going to say exactly the same thing about pro-vaxxers. Except the part about them looking at the science. Most just parrot the same vaccine sales pitches that have nothing to do with science.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Of course, you’ve never been able to show that it’s a sales pitch, have you?

  • Tim E

    2 thoughts :
    1) what do these “resistors” do when it comes to polio vaccination?
    2) I am sure the Mayo Clinic’s studies on vaccinations are above reproach, if these rich folk want; pay for your 2 experts to take a debate with the two Mayo experts you have the monies so pay – you have place – no gov’t / no pharma – record it – show it !! If you are “right” then you win but if not…..

    **) Chiropractors have what amount of biological training?

    • Judith

      ” I am sure the Mayo Clinic’s studies on vaccinations are above reproach” Ok how are you so sure? Why is it that Cochrane and Institute of Medicine both found that there have been no adequate studies of vaccinations?

      • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

        Cochrane is many groups, not an entity as a whole, so what makes you think all the groups got together and decided there are no adequate studies on vaccines?

        IoM certainly found no such thing.

        • Judith

          You lie the IOM certainly did find such a thing:

          In summary, few studies have comprehensively assessed the association between the entire immunization schedule or variations in the overall schedule and categories of health outcomes, and no study has directly examined health outcomes and stakeholder concerns in precisely the way that the committee was charged to address in its statement of task. No studies have compared the differences in health outcomes that some stakeholders questioned between entirely unimmunized populations of children and fully immunized children. Experts who addressed the committee pointed not to a body of evidence that had been overlooked but rather to the fact that existing research has not been designed to test the entire immunization schedule.

          The committee believes that although the available evidence is reassuring, studies designed to examine the long-term effects of the cumulative number of vaccines or other aspects of the immunization schedule have not been conducted. Nevertheless, in its literature review, the committee found useful designs for studies to measure exposures and outcomes and identified strategies for expanding or adapting conventional study designs to clearly address whether any adverse health outcomes are associated with the overall immunization schedule.

          However, some stakeholders have suggested that further research is warranted, such as a comparison of vaccinated children with unvaccinated children or children immunized on alternative schedules.

          It is possible to make this comparison through analyses of patient information contained in large databases such as VSD, but it would be unethical and infeasible to conduct an RCT, as summarized above and detailed in Chapter 6. Because an RCT would increase the risk of preventable diseases in individuals and in the community and entail significant amounts of time, money, and other resources, the committee concludes that new RCTs of the childhood immunization schedule are not justified at this time.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK206938/

          • FallsAngel

            Snort! Here are the conclusions of your link:

            “The committee’s efforts to identify priorities for recommended
            research studies did not reveal an evidence base suggesting that the childhood immunization schedule is linked to autoimmune diseases, asthma, hypersensitivity, seizures, child developmental disorders, learning disorders or developmental disorders, or attention deficit or disruptive behavior disorders. Although stakeholder concerns should be one of the elements used to drive searches for scientific evidence, these concerns alone, absent epidemiological or biological evidence, do not warrant the initiation of high-cost research studies. The committee concludes that the use of existing data from database systems to conduct observational studies offers the best means for ongoing research efforts about the immunization schedule’s safety.

            The committee found no significant evidence to imply that the recommended immunization schedule is not safe. Furthermore, existing surveillance and response systems have identified known adverse events associated with vaccination. The federal research infrastructure is a strong system. A key component is the VSD project, which with ongoing support will be able to feasibly address the committee’s research questions identified in Box S-2. Although the committee concluded that protecting children from vaccine-preventable diseases is of higher importance than testing alternative immunization schedules without epidemiological or biological evidence indicating a safety problem, VSD should continue to examine the health outcomes of people who choose alternative schedules.

            Looking to the future, the committee supports the work of the federal research infrastructure to ensure that stakeholders are involved in all stages of the development, implementation, evaluation, and dissemination of the immunization schedule. As electronic medical records become more commonly used, they may provide an opportunity to capture complete immunization data linked with hospital discharge records, which will be useful to future studies. Newer initiatives such as the National Children’s Study and the Post-Licensure Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring (PRISM) program also hold promise in providing further study opportunities.”

            Emphasis mine

          • Mike Stevens

            Judith lying yet again?
            Who would ever have thought it?
            ☺️
            🤥

          • AutismDadd

            We expect it more from you actually. Lying by omission may seem like not lying but it really is.

          • john tucci

            “Judith lying” no surprise Mike.

          • Proponent

            Just checked the weather in hell, where anti-vaxxers congregate … snowballs’ outlook still looking very promising.

            😉

          • john tucci

            CLASSIC

          • AutismDadd

            The COMMITTEE? Who was on this committee?

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      Science is not decided by debate. How about they do some sort of live demonstration or have the debate in court where perjury laws apply, at least?

  • Dorit Reiss

    It’s troubling that in spite of a global scientific consensus drawing on decades of studies a minority of people are more worried about vaccines that prevent diseases than about the diseases vaccines protect children from.

    Serious harms from vaccines are extraordinarily rare, deaths almost unheard from. But children have been dying from measles in first world Europe in the past year (few years) because of anti-vaccine misinformation. Let’s not bring that to California.

    • Judith

      Extraordinary rare Dorit? How can you explain that when approximately only 1% of all adverse events are reported and even then there is resistance from medical staff to say any adverse event is from vaccination:

      “Adverse events from vaccines are common but underreported, with less than one percent reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Low reporting rates preclude or delay the identification of “problem” vaccines, potentially endangering the health of the public. New surveillance methods for drug and vaccine adverse effects are needed. Proactive, spontaneous, automated adverse event reporting embedded within electronic medical records (EMRs) and other information systems has the potential to speed the identification of problems with new vaccines and yield more careful quantification of the risks of older ones.”

      https://healthit.ahrq.gov/ahrq-funded-projects/electronic-support-public-health-vaccine-adverse-event-reporting-system

      • Mike Stevens

        “Adverse events from vaccines are common but underreported, with less than one percent reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).”
        Please provide a link to the FDA statement or source that indicates this, Judith.
        …oh no you can’t, because they never said that.

        • Judith

          “In 2016, VAERS received 59,117 reports of adverse reactions following vaccination including 432 deaths, 1,091 permanent disabilities, 4,132 hospitalizations, and 10,284 emergency room visits.28

          A problem with VAERS is that it is a passive reporting system, relying on voluntary, rather than mandatory, reporting.29 As such, numerous reviews of VAERS have found that only a tiny fraction of vaccine adverse events are reported. For example, an HHS-funded review of vaccine adverse events over a three-year period by Harvard Medical School involving 715,000 patients found that “fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported.”30 A U.S. House Report similarly stated: “Former FDA Commissioner David A. Kessler has estimated that VAERS reports currently represent only a fraction of the serious adverse events.”31

          Assuming VAERS captures 1 percent of adverse events (which is more than is estimated), then the number of adverse events reported to VAERS in 2016 would reflect for that year 5,911,700 adverse events, 43,200 deaths, 109,100 permanent disabilities, 413,200 hospitalizations, and 1,028,400 emergency room visits. If accurate, these figures are very troubling.

          Of course, these figures are merely estimates. It would be far better if adverse events reports were automatically created and submitted to VAERS to avoid the issue of underreporting. Automated reporting would provide invaluable information that could clarify which vaccines might cause which harms and to whom, potentially allowing us to avoid these injuries and deaths.

          The idea of automating adverse event reporting to VAERS is not new or even difficult to achieve.32 The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, an agency within HHS, sought to do exactly that in 2007 when it provided an approximately $1 million grant to automate VAERS reporting at Harvard Pilgrim Health Care.33 The result was the successful automation of adverse event reports at Harvard Pilgrim:

          Preliminary data were collected from June 2006 through October 2009 on 715,000 patients, and 1.4 million doses (of 45 different vaccines) were given to 376,452 individuals. Of these doses, 35,570 possible reactions … were identified.34

          These results should have been startling to HHS since they show that over only a three-year period, there were 35,570 reportable reactions in just 376,452 vaccine recipients. Given HHS’s statutory mandate to assure safer vaccines, it should have rushed forward with automating VAERS reporting. However, this is not what happened.

          After automating adverse event reports at Harvard Pilgrim, the developers of this system asked the CDC to take the final step of linking VAERS with the Harvard Pilgrim system so that these reports could be automatically transmitted into VAERS. Instead, the CDC refused to cooperate. As the Harvard grant recipients explained:

          Unfortunately, there was never an opportunity to perform system performance assessments because the necessary CDC contacts were no longer available and the CDC consultants responsible for receiving data were no longer responsive to our multiple requests to proceed with testing and evaluation.35

          After three years and spending $1 million of taxpayers’ money, the CDC refused to even communicate with the HHS’ Harvard Medical School grant recipients.”

          http://www.icandecide.com/white-papers/VaccineSafety-Version-1.0-October-2-2017.pdf

        • Judith

          Adverse events from drugs and vaccines are common, but underreported. Although 25% of ambulatory patients experience an adverse drug event, less than 0.3% of all adverse drug events and 1-13% of serious events are reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

          Likewise, fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported. (page 6)

          https://healthit.ahrq.gov/sites/default/files/docs/publication/r18hs017045-lazarus-final-report-2011.pdf

          • FallsAngel

            Your quote is not in reference to vaccines. And I’d like to know where they got their stats.

          • Mike Stevens

            But we know the majority of serious side effects are reported, and that’s what Dorit said.

          • AutismDadd

            You will need to prove that Mike. We know you won’t.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Since everyone who gets a vaccine gets a VIS with it and all VIS state how to report and adverse event, it stands to reason they are not being reported at the rate you would like because they are not a big deal.

        • AutismDadd

          You and Dorit? Dorit has ties to the industry. Nuff said.

      • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

        That is within that health system and it is likely that 99% of adverse events not reported are so mild as to be unnecessary to report. I just had a tetanus vaccine and it caused a golf ball sized lump in my arm that, two weeks on, is still not completely gone. I am not reporting it. It is way too mild to be a reason to avoid vaccines.

        • Judith

          Enjoy your golf ball on your arm from your vaccine Kathy. What makes you think that 99% of adverse events are mild – that is just a guess from you. Also a large percentage of adverse events can happen months and years after the vaccine as the immune system is severely compromised and can break down.

          • shay simmons

            I don’t recall — even in the Marines, when they used to line us up for multiple vaccines — ever having a golf ball-sized lump on my arm.

            What is your evidence for “a large percentage of adverse events can happen months and years after the vaccine ”

            You do have some, right?

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            It’s not a golf ball anymore. It’s about the size of a pea now.

            Vaccines do not cause things months or years later. It would be impossible to rule out all the conflicting variables. Stop being dense.

          • AutismDadd

            Now Kathy is a vaccine expert, though I see no actual evidence to support her delusions of grand manure.

          • Judith

            Enjoy your pea

          • Mike Stevens

            …She’s a princess!

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            You and Del and the rest are just making yourselves look stupid. Seriously.

          • Judith

            You wish

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Just this week, they dredged up the Hannah Poling case AGAIN. That has long ago been declared not a reason to blame vaccines as the cause of autism. Did you read the Brian Hooker vax injury case? The foot note on page 7 explains.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Judith, how should we select the LARGE unvaccinated group?

          • Judith

            You do what is very common in research – you do a retrospective study by looking at medical records of vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts – simple

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Okay, but that assumes that there IS a large unvaccinated group?

            And this group would be s like children of parents who use naturopaths and chiropractors and the like, yeah?

          • JGC

            Such retrospective studies have been done, by multiple independent researchers associated with multiple public and private public health agencies and academic institutions in multiple nations. None have found evidence suggesting the risk associated with routine childhood vaccination exceeds the risk associated with remaining vulnerable to infection.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Last year, when I got my flu vax, the My Little Pony bandaid gave me a rash. Should I report that?

          • FallsAngel

            Of course you should!

          • AutismDadd

            How flippant and a typical reaction from someone who cruises the vaccine forums to interject personal belief and anecdotes while lying by omission that vaccines can and do maim and kill.

          • AutismDadd

            It might be a brain tumor.

          • Mike Stevens

            ” What makes you think that 99% of adverse events are mild – that is just a guess from you”

            Well, here as one example are the reported adverse events following quadrivalent flu vaccination. Firstly, one must note that not all reported events following vaccination are necessarily due to vaccination, some can be due to coincidental problems. (For example, 3 days after my recent vaccination I woke with a headache. I thought is was likely to be the way I had slept during the night, as I was in a hotel with a hard pillow. Sure enough, it went away with 2 paracetamol and next night back home I had no problems).

            If you look at the observed frequency of the events, and categorise them into whether you think they are mild or severe, you will see that all of the events I would regard as severe (eg parasthesiae, breathlessness, diarrhoea, arthralgia, hyperhidrosis) occur at observed frequencies of less than 1%.

            Problems like discomfort/pain/swelling/redness at the injection site, headache, feeling unwell or having a fever (which I would regard as rather minor side effects) occur more frequently.
            This confirms what I have said.

            You can do a similar assessment of other vaccines based on their SPCs. You’ll find almost identical frequencies for the mild effects (fairly frequent) versus the more severe effects (uncommon or rare).

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/56819f0880f31f1f2e205eb7b908127ba6e8c220484ddaa199b65d4efe925594.jpg

        • AutismDadd

          Then you are not someone whose opinion I’d follow. You should report it.

    • AutismDadd

      Dorit disagrees with PHYSICIANS FOR INFORMED CONSENT. I’ll go with with the physician group thank you very much.

      • sabelmouse

        informed consent just doesn’t go with gun point vaxxing!

        • AutismDadd

          True. But then mandating and coercion aren’t “force” according to vaccine injury advocates.

          • sabelmouse

            true, but she does mumble about sending police.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Yes. Well done, sabel. Now, what is your evidence of gun point vaxing?

    • Pastaballshafter

      Lies, damn lies and Dorit, what a horror story maker you are.

  • no1uknow1

    We’ll take the testimony of the world’s leading neurosurgeons over the likes of Dorito Reiss. The experts have reversed their position and now testify that vaccines do in fact cause autism. pro vaxxers are just not up on the latest science.

    • Andrew Lazarus

      I can’t wait to see who these neurosurgeons are. Russell Blaylock? He took time out from warning about chemtrails again?

      Half of the already tiny number of antivax scientists are grifters in it for the money.

      • AutismDadd

        But you CAN’T prove it. Allegations aren’t evidence

    • Judith

      Dorit is a Lawyer not a medical person- specifically she is using her skills to force parents to partake in the the pharmaceutical model and forgo natural immunity and wholistic health. The highly profitable pharmaceutical model means 72 vaccines by the age of 18. It is highly profitable because the health of children in the first world particularly US has never been worse and pharma has clients for life.

      About 1 in 6 children in the United States had a developmental disability in 2006-2008, ranging from mild disabilities such as speech and language impairments to serious developmental disabilities, such as intellectual disabilities, cerebral palsy, and autism.

      https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

      • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

        Dorit is a law professor, not a lawyer, and her area of expertise is immunization and vaccine issues and laws.

        There is no reason to presume that 1:6 children have a disability of sorts is an increase in anything other than better diagnosis. It certainly has nothing to do with vaccines. If anything, it might be related to more premies surviving than ever before and more children born addicted to drugs or affected by alcohol. And, for that, you have pharmaceutical companies and doctors to thank for enabling these children to survive. Also, in past generations, we simply did not teach children who could not keep up with their class, we did not offer anyone help to overcome speech difficulties, we did not help children who need occupational therapy or physical therapy.

        Life is better Judith!

        • Judith

          Kathy you claim the massive increase in disability has nothing to do with vaccines and yet there are no studies being done study if vaccines are doing damage. To do this you would need to study a large body of unvaccinated/vaccinated which could be done by looking at health records retrospectively and comparing with those that received the full schedule. This is not being done – the government refuses to do it.

          • shay simmons

            Not “massive increase in disability” – massive increase in diagnoses.

            “yet there are no studies being done study if vaccines are doing damage”

            Lying again, Judith? You’ve been provided with links to dozens of studies and scholarly articles, but here’s another.

            https://www.scielosp.org/article/bwho/2000.v78n2/186-194/en/

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Just for the sake of the new people, can you provide a link to where Judith has been told?

          • shay simmons

            No, but I think Mike has.

          • Judith

            Nope Mike never provided me with any studies that prove vaccines are not doing damage.

          • shay simmons

            Mike never provided me with any studies that proved to me vaccines are not doing damage

            FTFY.

          • john tucci

            Why do they keep lying. I have seen countless studies provided to Judith, perhaps she never bothered to read them.

          • shay simmons

            Or she has really bad short-term memory.

          • JoeFarmer

            Caused by her vaccine-induced mercury poisoning, no doubt.
            /s

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Everything does damage – any human activity does. Right now, we’re all risking RSI for example. Small risk but still a risk.

            Of course, what we disagree on is what specific damage they’re doing. And Judith, you claimed yourself that vaccines were causing autism – since it’s your claim that you made yourself – guess whose responsibility it is to support it?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Nope Mike never provided me with any studies that prove vaccines are not doing damage.”

            Judith, your specific claim was that “there are no studies being done [to] study if vaccines are doing damage.” I note you have now changed the wording, but then that is very like you to lie and mislead, isn’t it?

            That research studies are indeed being done to look at vaccine safety outcomes is very easily verified.
            http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Vaccine+safety+studies

            I’ve show you that the vaccines are capable of doing damage, so I can’t lie and tell you they “never do damage”. But the damage they do is outweighed by many orders of magnitude by the damage done if people do not vaccinate and get the disease. That is the whole point.

            Here is one metanalysis looking at autism and vaccine studies for example.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Well, you could lie but you would be dishonest if you did that, for one thing. For another, you would be spreading false information about vaccines in order to glorify them and it would make you a vax-pusher if you did that.

          • JGC

            What damage do you believe vaccines are doing Judith, and from what evidence does that belief derive?

            It’s founded on something more than a post hoc ergo prompter hoc logical fallacy or anecdotal accounts, I trust.

          • AutismDadd

            OH, so the diagnosis come first then. Our mistake. I thought thought the injury came first THEN the diagnosis.

          • Mike Stevens
          • shay simmons

            Not for Judith. It’s not a study conducted by the government on completely un-vaccinated left-handed children born in the dark of the moon to vegan parents.

          • Mike Stevens

            😉
            heh!

      • shay simmons

        How many children in the US had a developmental disability 50 years ago?

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      In that case, could you show us the latest science please? If my position is not accounting for latest data then I need to see the data, don’t I?

      Step 1: Make a claim:

      In this case, “The experts have reversed their position and now testify that vaccines do in fact cause autism”

      Step 2: Provide Three (3) citations from peer-reviewed journals to support it. (If there are financial implications, then provide your cites from countries with public health systems which have a strong monetary incentive to find problems and not hide them)

      Step 3: Provide relevant quotes from the papers (not the abstracts)

      Step 4: Situate the studies within the preponderance of the scientific evidence.

      Step 5: Explain why your citations take precedence over the scientific consensus.

      If you’re truly educated about vaccines and up on the latest science, it won’t be hard.

    • FallsAngel

      Who is this neurosurgeon? Neurosurgeons know. . . neurosurgery. Most of them haven’t had a vaccine course since med school. They don’t work with vaccines. Would you go to a general pediatrician for neurosurgery. In the same way, you shouldn’t take the advice of a neurosurgeon about vaccines if s/he hasn’t kept up since med school.

      • AutismDadd

        Yet you’d claim doctors are vaccine experts wouldn’t you? And you, a retarded nurse claims to be one too. SNORT!

  • desiree

    where do we get this list? also – the more affluent areas of CA are the rich and they DO NOT want their children poisoned…because they KNOW better.. I mean for GOD sake- Bill Gates doesn’t vaccinate his kids…coincidence? NOT LIKELY – Pan is a paid Pharma shill that needs to be voted out and his bill repealed…its against the Geneva convention..forced medical intervention is wrong- GOD save us in CA..vote John Cox in Nov.

    • Mike Stevens

      Pray to him to save you. You need saving.

    • Andrew Lazarus

      Antivax loons: Bill Gates is an evil person paying for massive vaccination campaigns in the Third World. https://www.gatesnotes.com/Vaccines

      Also Antivax loons: Bill Gates doesn’t vaccinate his kids. [Nonsense.]

      Hint to desiree: I don’t think Bill Gates cares about a minor Disqus commenter and he doesn’t need the money, but that comment strikes me as potentially defamatory. It’s certainly false.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      What in vaccines is poisonous at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination?

  • Donna Delikat

    Explain to me how “Physicians For INFORMED Consent” are “antivaccine”? Seems to me if there are enough children immuno-compromised that CAN NOT have vaccines, then those children can not have vaccines for a REASON. Vaccines are dangerous. All parents have the right to choose. If I could go back in time, knowing what I do now, I wouldn’t have ever taken the risk. I now have a child who is severely vaccine injured (no, it’s not “rare”) and can never be vaccinated again…ever. It is no one else’s business.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      What was your child;s severe vaccine injury?

      • FrenchKissed

        Twenty bucks says it’s autism. Never met a person whose child has a legitimate medical excuse not to be vaccinated that went around telling others not to vaccinate. They are usually going to PTA meetings and writing their representatives trying to ensure that everyone does their part to stop the spread of disease since their child is at the greatest risk.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Let’s wait and see what it is.

          • JGC

            And (just as important) also see the evidence demonstrating the injury he believes was caused by vaccines actually was caused by a vaccine.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            That’s what we call a follow-up question but yeah, that’ll be important.

          • AutismDadd

            It may be a recognized table injury.

          • JGC

            We won’t know until he tells us, will we?

          • AutismDadd

            Aren’t you going to deny it anyways?

          • JGC

            Deny what?

          • AutismDadd

            Anything not supporting your employer’s products.

          • JGC

            What employer, and what products, would those be? Be specific.

          • AutismDadd

            I forgot how dense you are.

          • JGC

            I remember how frequently you make statements that are not only false but represent wild conjecture.

          • AutismDadd

            Better than your banal, redundant mantra

        • Pastaballshafter

          Are you basing your vaccine fallacy believer meme on the fallacy of medical peer review as evidence then? I have never seen anything remotely honest that has demonstrated a good reason to stick a vaccine in anyone, let alone science, quite the opposite.

          When did your vaccine fallacy start Frenchy?

        • ciaparker2

          So what you’re saying is that those whose children are immunocompromised, whether as a result of vaccine damage or not, really don’t care at all if other people’s children are vaccine-damaged, as they believe that their child might be benefited by the disabling of others’ children.

          Well, I say sauve qui peut. Those children should get nosodes to protect them from whatever diseases their parents think may be a risk to them. And then let everyone else research it and make the vaccine decision for their own children on the merits, and accept or reject each one depending on the current circumstances and individuals involved.

          • JGC

            cia, what evidence demonstrates that routine childhood vaccination is causally associated with increased risk of becoming immuno-compromised?
            What evidence demonstrates nosodes are effective as a prophylactic against infectious disease at all, much less as or more effective as are vaccines?
            And what makes you think that parents do not already have the authority to decide whether or not their children will be vaccinated?

          • ciaparker2

            Why don’t you research it? Dr. Moskowitz’ book Vaccines: A Reappraisal is an excellent place to start, with chapters and full documentation on brain damage (autism, seizure disorders,etc.), autoimmune disease (asthma, allergies, etc.), other serious conditions (like the kidney failure of the little girl in Sarasota in July, which Dr. Moskowitz has seen in his practice), and death (often SIDS) caused by vaccines. The recent anthology Vaccines and Autoimmunity by Yehuda Schoenfeld is another wonderful resource, with the densest documentation on vaccines causing autoimmune disease I’ve ever seen.
            Get one of Isaac Golden’s books on homeopathic prophylaxis for full documentation and many studies on the efficacy of homeopathic nosodes for disease prevention, with charts showing the results on studies to compare its efficacy with that of vaccines.
            I did not have the authority. I went to the pediatrician a month before my daughter was born in 2000 only to tell him I absolutely didn’t want my baby to get the hep-B vaccine when she was born, as I had read it often caused autism. That was one year after the congressional hearing on the hep-B vaccine, which found it was very dangerous and should never be given with mercury. But, because it was standing orders to give it to all newborns on the day of birth without asking the parents’ permission, it was given to my baby at midnight the day of birth. And at nearly four days after she was born, she reacted with inconsolable, incessant screaming syndrome for four days and nights, vaccine encephalitis, and she was later diagnosed with autism. And she also reacted with symptoms of mercury poisoning, a rash, sweating even in cool rooms, and drooling for ten years. Because Merck continued to sell Recombivax WITH mercury until 2002, the expiration date of the stock they still had on hand in 1999, when they promised not to MAKE it with mercury anymore. And NONE of that was with my permission.
            Most parents think vaccines are required for school, and I’ve gotten many notices from my daughter’s school saying that such and such a vaccine is required. I have gotten religious exemptions, but I’m better informed on the subject than most. And in three states, vaccines ARE required for school. Parents have to choose between a good chance of severely damaging their child for life and having a place to send them while the parents are at work. So choosing to refuse the vaccines is not an option for them.

          • JGC

            I’ve tried to examine Dr. Moskowitz’ research. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear he’s done any: I can’t find any publications he’s authored on the topic of vaccines indexed in PubMed.

            I’ve found an article by Dr. Golden on the topic of homeoprophylaxis in Cuba, but its design leaves much to be desired. He compared the number of confirmed cases of leptospirosis

            in a region where homeopathic vaccination was occurring to the incidence in the entire rest of Cuba in order to manufacture an apparently significant difference in incidence. He does nothing to establish that the incidence in different geographic regions is 1) equivalent or 2) that the homeopathic vaccines reduced incidence in the specific region (i.e., no attempt to address confounders).

            He doesn’t even normalize for population: his graphs present the raw number of confirmed cases in the intervened area and the rest of the country, rather than case per 10,000 residents or the equivalent. Are we to be surprised there were fewer total cases in a small portion of the Cuban population living in one region, compared to the number of cases in the entire rest of the Cuban population living elsewhere?

            “That was one year after the congressional hearing on the hep-B vaccine, which found it was very dangerous and should never be given with mercury”

            Which congressional hearing was that, and what evidence led it to conclude that the hep-B vaccine was both “very dangerous and should never be given with mercury”?

            “And she also reacted with symptoms of mercury poisoning, a rash, sweating even in cool rooms, and drooling for ten years”

            Did she ever receive a diagnosis of mercury poisoning given by a licensed physician?

            ‘And at nearly four days after she was born, she reacted with inconsolable, incessant screaming syndrome for four days and nights, vaccine encephalitis, and she was later diagnosed with autism.”

            And your evidence that the autism she was later diagnosed with was actually caused by the hep-B vaccination she received would be what, exactly? You do realize “after” is not a synonym for “because of”?

            “I have gotten religious exemptions, but I’m better informed on the subject than most.”

            What religion are you? It must be a minor tradition, as none of the larger traditions oppose vaccination as an article of faith.

            “Parents have to choose between a good chance of severely damaging their child for life and having a place to send them while the parents are at work.”
            False dichotomy: they could work staggered shifts so that one parent is home at all times, one parent could stop working and become a full-time caregiver for the children, etc.
            “So choosing to refuse the vaccines is not an option for them”
            It’s an option–perhaps not one they find attractive, but I’m sure you’ll agree that choices often entail consequences.

          • AutismDadd

            Outstanding callous disregard.

          • roscoe

            phooey

          • AutismDadd

            Time for your nap?

          • FrenchKissed

            No, I’m saying that people whose children are at risk of dying because they cannot be vaccinated are going to be the least tolerant of crazy people that blame their kids’ developmental disabilities on vaccines instead of genetics or parental age or any other probable cause.

            I had to google nosodes *eyeroll* I think we could possibly make a vaccine exemption for people who are willing to take medicine made with diseased fluids taken from a rabid skunk, as long as treatment is completed prior to having children. They will need to be quarantined for at least 6 months, obviously and won’t be eligible for organ donation afterwards.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, those of us who have SEEN our children react to vaccines with permanent disability, and there are millions of us, really do not care at all about the opinion of those who refuse to believe us. We have to sacrifice our still healthy other children so that another child might or might not be prevented from getting chickenpox or measles? That is so silly it doesn’t even merit the effort it takes to type an answer. And what about the countless millions out there who have NO immunity to most or all of the VPDs, including teachers, lunchroom workers, janitors, etc., in schools? And grocery stores, WalMart, the gas station, the park, the library, at church, on and on? We haven’t gotten ANY vaccine in DECADES, so any vaccine protection we had has long since worn off, and we’ve never gotten any of the many new ones. And yet the world goes on, doesn’t it, with no large outbreaks of anything.

            You are really out there. What you mean is that those who take live vaccines such as the MMR, varicella, rotavirus, and Flumist if it comes back, must be quarantined for six months to prevent them from infecting the immunocompromised. And I assume you mean that those getting MMR and Tdap should do so before having children, as we all saw how getting them in pregnancy has caused many tragedies, including the Zika incident. And now you’re just trying to generalize those experiences to an area about which you know nothing at all.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “We have to sacrifice our still healthy other children so that another child might or might not be prevented from getting chickenpox or measles? That is so silly it doesn’t even merit the effort it takes to type an answer.”

            ciaparker2: “I had shingles when my daughter was nearly two, and I deliberately gave it to her so that she would get chicken pox and have permanent immunity. She had a fever for one day and vomited, and was covered with lesions for about two weeks, but she recovered without incident, and now I don’t have to even think about chicken pox, exposure, or whether a booster may become necessary in the future.”

            … …

            “sacrifice our still healthy other children”.. not sure that “sacrifice” is the appropriate word for inflicting your not, then, two-year-old daughter with a disease, ciaparker2.

          • FrenchKissed

            What permanent disability would that be?

            I’m sure you have seen your child react to vaccines with permanent disability, just as your ancestors witnessed the miraculous recovery of a sick child a mere 10 days after he underwent a bloodletting performed by a local healer.

          • ciaparker2

            Only so much stupidity I can take. Blocked.

          • sabelmouse

            and that silly name!

          • john tucci

            Yes, but unlike you she is GORGEOUS.

          • sabelmouse

            wow, new level in juvenile reached, dingdingding.

          • john tucci

            You only wish you could look like her, Yeah in your dreams.

          • sabelmouse

            why would i want to look like a tired emaciated white woman approaching middle age?

          • john tucci

            Better than looking like a black slag.

          • sabelmouse

            ””Better than looking like a black slag””.

            this will defs be flagged as abuse. racist , and slut shaming, wow! i didn’t think you could sink lower.
            not only are you talking about the looks of anon posters like a teenager in a school playground but THIS?!
            i am beyond disgusted.
            the likes of you calling people who want 3rd world children to have food and clean water rather than be injured by contraindicated vaccines that pharma profits from racist is ludicrous, but this really shows your true colours!

          • john tucci

            you asked for it.

          • sabelmouse

            is that what you tell all the women that you interact with?! i think somebody should look into you.

          • john tucci

            You have a reading comprehension. Did I call YOU names. Go back and read my post. I said “better than being a black slag” where does that mean you?

          • sabelmouse

            you were insulting black women generally. you’re ”asked for it” reply fits right in.

          • AutismDadd

            punk alert

          • Damo

            “why would i want to look like a tired emaciated white woman approaching middle age?”

            Hypocrite much?

          • sabelmouse

            i am describing a photo that i see, not insulting white women generally.

          • Mike Stevens

            @FrenchKissed:disqus
            See this?

          • AutismDadd

            Looks like a heroine addict nodding off

          • AutismDadd

            Meaning no chance for you john boy

          • AutismDadd

            Looks like your Mom does she?

          • john tucci

            She is gorgeous, just like my mum.

          • AutismDadd

            Are you a borderline MF?

          • ciaparker2

            Hooker chic?

          • john tucci

            Jealousy is a curse, you only wish you could look like her.

          • AutismDadd

            You have no chance, she likes intelligent types

          • sabelmouse

            i certainly can’t abide a stupid man!

          • AutismDadd

            There are many out there.

          • sabelmouse

            there are ! 🙁

          • White_and_Nerdy

            The irony is infinite!

            W&N

          • Acleron

            So you are at the back of the list, sad.

          • AutismDadd

            Why Sad? Who wants a nodding heroine addict?

          • tomonthebay

            snort.

          • sabelmouse

            read his reply to me!

          • ciaparker2

            Could you email it to me? I’ve blocked a lot of these losers and am not sure which to temporarily unblock.

          • sabelmouse

            done

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you. I had to google it, it’s British slang. Yeah, I’m sure it will be taken down. This lot is all bottom of the barrel.

          • ciaparker2

            I saw that it had not been taken down. Well, you know mod V., its his/her kind of trash talk.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “and that silly name!”

            You mean, the name of one of your sock puppet accounts in on this discussion? Namely; schapdoinkle?

            Yes, it’s a silly name.. literally.. since it means; “stupid”. Fits both of you to a T, though!

          • Acleron

            Parker cannot answer.

          • john tucci

            Give her time, she will be back.

          • Acleron

            Yes she will but not with any coherent answers.

          • AutismDadd

            I find Cia coherent at all times. Your pathetic character assassination bounces off her and back on you.

          • Acleron

            LMAO, yes of course you find garbage postings comprehensible, it is all you understand.

          • AutismDadd

            Now how did I suspect Acleron would reply with a juvenile comment, as usual?

          • Proponent

            AutismDadd: “I find Cia coherent at all times.”

            ciaparker2: “My uncle was normal until he fell asleep, probably drunk, as a teenager, on a boat dock on Lake Pontchartrain in the blazing sun for many hours. When he woke up, he had schizophrenia, for the rest of his life.”

          • AutismDadd

            Then you answer. Just say DUH

          • sabelmouse

            don’t you usually complain that she answers to much, you/se.

          • Acleron

            Replying with nonsense is not an answer.

          • Ron Roy

            Acleron’s idea of nonsense: Anything that could harm the profits of his employers.

          • Acleron

            What employers?

          • AutismDadd

            Are you saying you don’t have an employer…loser?

          • Acleron

            Lol, we all don’t have to dig roads to get money, I’ve been retired for a long time which anybody with the attention span of a gnat would have known, except of course little lying Duddy Boy.

          • AutismDadd

            10,008

          • Acleron

            I notice you cannot come up with any employer, like all antivaxxers, you are just a liar.

          • AutismDadd

            10,005

          • Acleron

            Yeah, just a liar.

          • AutismDadd

            10,007

          • tomonthebay

            That’s ok. The rest of us will see the responses that call out your blatant lies.

          • AutismDadd

            tom posts ANOTHER major league DUD

          • Acleron

            She has never realised her lies can be corrected without a lying response from her.

          • JoeFarmer

            I really believe that she thinks blocking someone means their replies can’t be seen by anyone else, either. She really is that many bricks short of a load.

          • Acleron

            She has been told several times but has never seen them.

          • JoeFarmer

            It’s kind of frightening when you realize that she is also operates a motor vehicle…

          • Acleron

            I once sat with a learner driver who drove straight into a roundabout. On asking what the & £#@() happened she told me that she thought the car would turn the right way. This worried me on many levels including the fact she was a graduate who worked for me. To my astonishment she quickly passed her test. She then wrote off three cars in the following year.

          • AutismDadd

            Was your Mom hurt?

          • Acleron

            Lol, my mother if she was still alive would laugh at that, she drove ambulances in London in WWII.

          • AutismDadd

            A brave woman worthy of praise. So WTF happened to you?

          • Acleron

            Among many things, she taught me not to lie, you’ve obviously never learned even that.

          • AutismDadd

            So you disgrace her by lying and lying. So sad

          • john tucci

            You did have to bring that up didn’t you? Lucky I am in Australia, we have enough whack jobs here.

          • AutismDadd

            10,004

          • tomonthebay

            She does seem to be completely delusional.

          • JoeFarmer

            And she’s deteriorating. A couple of years ago she was just mildly irrational.

          • AutismDadd

            Then we have Joe a load of digested hay.

          • AutismDadd

            Obviously tom has nothing to add but this dumb comment.

          • AutismDadd

            Block tomonthebay

          • tomonthebay

            If it is stupidity that offends you so much you should block yourself.

          • john tucci

            THAT is a good post, makes sense.

          • AutismDadd

            careful tom you may have to follow suit

          • john tucci

            “Blocked”= beaten.

          • AutismDadd

            How sad you have to go through life with that sad attitude.

          • AutismDadd

            Like me, Cia must love to see your ilk expose their ignorance. You have eliminated all credibility by suggesting we use local healers for bloodletting. On top of that you ignore the fact that is still done for specific reasons and that the birth of modern medicine came through these healers.

          • sabelmouse

            their ignorance of history is mind boggling.

          • AutismDadd

            That’s why they make up their own version. When Columbus discovered “America” There were MILLIONS of aboriginals and many large societies in the “Americas” They also “discovered China and India

          • tomonthebay

            As usual your reading comprehension is abysmal. French in no way said that anti-vaxxers use local healers for bloodletting. Did you even graduate from high school? If so, it must have been due to social promotion.

          • AutismDadd

            Another fail tom. Your trolling brings me great pleasure as I see you struggle to outdo me. What’s that song by Aerosmith? Dream on?

          • tomonthebay

            Learn to read dud. Your claim about what French said was blatantly false.

          • AutismDadd

            Dream until your dreams come true!

          • john tucci

            I would say any poster could “outdo” you.

          • AutismDadd

            You haven’t

          • tomonthebay

            My dog is more coherent that Adudd.

          • schpadoinkle

            just like tucci didn’t call me a ”black slag”.

          • tomonthebay

            Is your reading comprehension as poor as dudd’s? Read the statement, maybe do it slowly and move your lips.

          • schpadoinkle

            wrong

          • john tucci

            Nobody called you anything, you failed in comprehension, ( no surprise )

          • schpadoinkle

            you do. sometimes you gotta think to understand.

          • AutismDadd

            tom join Acleron at the children’s table please.

          • tomonthebay

            You’re the one that is struggling with reading comprehension and making comments that are on the level of a 10 year old little dudley.

          • AutismDadd

            How else can I communicate with you and Ace boy?

          • tomonthebay

            Unlike you, Acleron and I are actually educated and able to read and understand a scientific article.

          • AutismDadd

            I hadn’t noticed

          • tomonthebay

            Of course you haven’t because you are so completely lacking in self-awareness.

          • AutismDadd

            My self-awareness is better than average. You must mean something else.

          • tomonthebay

            Clueless doesn’t begin to describe you. You are one of the least self-aware people I have ever come across.

          • AutismDadd

            Then you are quite wrong. Self- awareness, awareness of SELF has nothing to do with debating pro-vac Neanderthals

          • tomonthebay

            For that matter we can actual comprehend basic reading, unlike you.

          • rat doctor

            His reading skills do appear to be very, very poor.

          • AutismDadd

            My basic reading is fine. How is it you don’t notice? Is it the blindfold you wear when praising vaccines?

          • tomonthebay

            I have noticed that your reading comprehension is very, very poor.

          • AutismDadd

            You are wrong.

          • john tucci

            ’10 year old” my that is generous, I would have said 5 year old.

          • sabelmouse

            pretty cynical.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Or being sick after an old woman vaguely mumbled in their direction so clearly a witch and clearly a curse.

          • JGC

            “Well, those of us who have SEEN our children react to vaccines with permanent disability, and there are millions of us, really do not care at all about the opinion of those who refuse to believe us.”

            Can you’ve indicate exactly what those of you have actually all-caps SEEN, other than the fact that their permanent disability occurred at some time point after they received the vaccination, that establishes causation?

            “After”, you’ll recall, isn’t synonymous with “because of”.

          • AutismDadd

            Yes JGC we know you are a ghoul, and a defender of vaccine injury. Do you get some sort of tingling sensation from being an asshole?

          • JGC

            Good luck with that whole-name-calling thing–perhaps it works for you on some juvenile level.

            Just be aware it does nothing to support your position nor to undermine mine.

          • AutismDadd

            It describes why you do what you do. Obviously it doesn’t shame you and you are beneath contempt.

          • tomonthebay

            Responding to cranks with actual facts does not make one a ghoul. JGC has nothing to be ashamed of. Pointing out the truth about the incredible safety and effectiveness of vaccines is a good thing.

          • ReviewTheFacts

            Read Patricia Neal’s autobiography. She details not having her daughter immunized, and the excruciating process of watching her die from this preventable disease. More people die from measles, than die from the vaccine.
            Having a vaccine and then getting sick a year later isn’t cause and effect, according to two studies recently concluded that show NO correlation between having the vaccine and getting autism. None. The same percentage of children get autism whether they’ve had vaccine or not.

          • JGC

            Think you replied to the wrong poster, RtF

          • ReviewTheFacts

            Nope. Read it. You’ll be interested.

          • Bored Now

            And then let everyone else research it and make the vaccine decision for their own children on the merits

            …and I would ask: “Exactly how capable are people of doing that?”

            Well, those of us who have SEEN our children react to vaccines with permanent disability,

            ….and your reply above is effectively “I can’t and neither can millions I know”.

          • FallsAngel

            “What you mean is that those who take live vaccines such as the MMR, varicella, rotavirus, and Flumist if it comes back, must be quarantined for six months to prevent them from infecting the immunocompromised.”

            I was just waiting for you to say that again cia. First let’s clear up one thing. You, the fount of all knowledge about vaccines in your own mind, don’t even know that Flu Mist IS back. Secondly, my husband is in the hospital on an oncology until where a lot of people are immunosuppressed. I took a picture of their precaution sign. If I had as good of computer skills as others, I’d post the picture of the sign. However, I’ll post the words on the sign. Mind you, this is Presbyterian-St. Luke’s Hospital in Denver, an academic oncology center.

            (All emphasis P/SLs)

            All visitors MUST report to the nurses’ station to sign in and be screened upon arrival. No exceptions.

            No one under the age of 14 is allowed in the Oncology unit.

            You must leave the unit immediately if:

            You have received the INTRANASAL FLU VACCINE within the past 10 days.

            You have a rash from receiving the ZOSTER VACCINE. You may return when the rash is gone.

            You have a rash from receiving the VARICELLA VACCINE.You may return when the rash is gone. The rash may appear for up to one month after you have received the vaccine.

            You have a rash and/or fever from receiving the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella VACCINE.

            Why do you lie so much, cia?

          • tomonthebay

            Your posts are so delusional it is difficult to discern what you have seen and what you have hallucinated.

          • Damo

            “really do not care at all about the opinion of those who refuse to believe us.”

            That much is obvious. You really don’t care that everyone else is literally explaining to you why you are wrong. You are just going to continue to ignore facts.

          • ciaparker2

            Allow me to simplify it for you.

            https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain,-spinal-cord,-and-nerve-disorders/brain-infections/encephalitis

            “Encephalitis is inflammation of the brain that occurs
            when a virus directly infects the brain or when a virus, VACCINE, or something else triggers inflammation. The spinal cord may also be involved, resulting in a disorder called encephalomyelitis.”

            This inflammation is often an acute reaction to a vaccine, any vaccine, as part of the inflammatory process necessary to force the production of antibodies. Its most common manifestation is as screaming syndrome, such as both I and my daughter experienced when we reacted to vaccines. It is often a chronic one as well, and it is now known that autism is a chronic inflammation of the brain. Adjuvants such as aluminum are chosen precisely because they keep the inflammation going for many years. Capisci? Probably not. You don’t even know what a fact is.

          • Damo

            “Capisci? Probably not. You don’t even know what a fact is.”

            I see what the problem is. You think your little story is full of facts. Evidenced by your telling me that I don’t know what a fact is after giving me some fiction. Sorry that you don’t understand that facts are verifiable. Your fiction is not.

            As Columbo used to say, “just one more thing ma’am…” Do you really believe this baloney or are you just lying for entertainment?

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • Damo

            Try vowels. They are essential for the English language.

          • White_and_Nerdy

            I agree…..this is very, very simple. I still have the page book-marked from all the other times we have gone through this…

            https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/neurologic-disorders/brain-infections/encephalitis

            “The most common causes of this complication used to be measles, rubella, chickenpox, and mumps (all now uncommon because childhood vaccination is widespread); smallpox vaccine; and live-virus vaccines (eg, the older rabies vaccines prepared from sheep or goat brain).”

            March 2014….in the article “Kristin Cavallari Refuses to Get Her Son Vaccinated’
            You proved you fabricated your daughter’s “vaccine reaction”….

            You truly are dishonest with basically every single posting….

            Good news: all it takes is the integrity to read the words to see your dishonestly!

            W&N

          • Mike Stevens

            Let me guess- Parker is claiming all vaccines cause encephalitis (cite – Merk Manual)?

            Your quote from it bears repeating:

            “The most common causes of this complication [encephalitis] used to be measles, rubella, chickenpox, and mumps (all now uncommon because childhood vaccination is widespread); smallpox vaccine; and live-virus vaccines (eg, the older rabies vaccines prepared from sheep or goat brain).”

          • AutismDadd

            To simplify for Damo you will need to lower the bar into a wagon rut

          • sabelmouse

            🙂

          • AutismDadd

            If I was Cia I’d block you. Talk about NWHT

          • Damo

            Sure, Cia can block me. I could care less. It won’t stop me from pointing out her foolishness when I see it.

            Good for you, by the way. You finally managed to construct a sentence that makes sense. The second one didnt, however. 1 out 2 ain’t bad though.

          • AutismDadd

            Can I send you a kleenex?

          • Damo

            More evidence of your stupidity.

          • AutismDadd

            OK T.P. so you can wipe after posting.

          • ciaparker2

            Still skulking, M.?

          • Damo

            Huh?

            Can anyone translate gibberish for me? This one doesn’t make any sense.

          • ciaparker2

            Not addressing you. He knows what I mean.

          • Damo

            Yes, you did address me. It was a reply to me.

            You might be dumber than ADudd.

          • ciaparker2

            Nevertheless, I was not addressing you. Sorry you can’t make it over the low bar down at the bottom of that wagon rut.

          • Damo

            So you reply to me. then state that you weren’t addressing me (which you obviously were–which is why you replied to my post). And now you are insulting me because you are too dumb to realize that you made a mistake.

            There is no wonder why you are confused about vaccines, you obviously have no clue how to think.

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t do st-pid. Blocked.

          • Damo

            Good. I am glad I won’t have your stupidity directed at me again.

            But I will still point out your lies and stupidity when I see it. Now you just won’t be able to excuse it. thanks for that.

          • Acleron

            You can always tell when Parker has lost an argument. Her block list is very long.

          • AutismDadd

            Meaning your constant harassment of Cia is worthy of blocking id not banning

          • Acleron

            LMAO, how can I harass someone who never sees my posts? What a fool you are.

          • AutismDadd

            I see them

          • Acleron

            You are cia Parker now? Delusions of very minor grandeur lol.

          • AutismDadd

            Wow you are a high grade dufus.

          • AutismDadd

            So you claim your constant insults directed at cia isn’t meant to be harassing? It is on Earth but not from Uranus, which must be where it originates.

          • Acleron

            Pointing out her, and your, continuous stupidity and lying is hardly harrassment. In Parker’s case, it is impossible as she cannot see anything. You however, are a serial harrasser, that is what you do when caught lying yet again, multiple posts to the same comment and scanning through an account to vomit out random rather pathetic insults usually involving the scatological.

          • AutismDadd

            You are guilty as charged and are hereby sentenced to work with vaccine induced autism victims .

          • Acleron

            Lol, your uninformed and very stupid opinion is hardly conclusive.

          • AutismDadd

            So you can provide PROOF all autism is CAUSED by parental age and/or genes. Would love to see it.

          • john tucci
          • AutismDadd

            Says the cell line came from a child who’s parents did not have it. So its spontaneous NOT inherited. Why should a child suffer a spontaneous mutation? Well lets just confirm that mercury (thimerosal) aluminum and formaldehyde ALL are known to cause spontaneous gene mutation. All being genotoxic and mutogenic. So is autism genetic as in inherited in your example, or is it caused by an environmental trigger. Let me know what you think.

          • john tucci

            Well I know for certain that vaccination doe not cause Autism, but there are plenty of anti-vaxers still believe that. Yes it appears that Autism MAY be caused by problems with genes.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice try. Autism is associated with encephalopathy. You can read of that ( aluminum encephalopathy) at PMC 3680909 and PMC 5651828

          • tomonthebay

            Neither article has any relationship to autism and also makes it clear that aluminum toxicity of any kind requires exposure to amounts THOUSANDS of times greater than what are present in vaccines. Again you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of the science. Par for the course for adumb.

          • sabelmouse

            his COULD be funny!

          • AutismDadd

            Well tom, unlike you I’m not closed minded and rooted in dogma. Aluminum does accumulate in the brain and causes memory impairment, speech impairment, disorientation, apraxia, EEG changes, seizures and encepholopathy. I guess you don’t know that. So whether it happens due to large exposure or less but over time, like we might see with regression and autism, all your hand waving and denial only shows your inability or unwillingness to think.

          • tomonthebay

            The aluminum salts in vaccines, again and again pointed out to you in quantities measured in MILLIONTHS of a gram do not accumulate in the brain. They are eliminated by the body. Your very first reference, where the patient got THOUSANDS of times greater the amount of aluminum compound than found in a vaccine 4 TIMES DAILY had his/her symptoms resolve a short time after discontinuation of the therapy. Once again we see your complete lack of understanding of the physiological processes involved.

          • AutismDadd

            Blah blah dogma tom strikes again. Redundant, repetitive rubbish with no evidence of being able to think outside the dogma

          • tomonthebay

            Facts, dumbley, facts. Your inability to understand simple math is on you.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice try. You prove nothing with insipid insults.

          • tomonthebay

            ROFLMAO. It is quite clear that you did not understand either article as neither of them demonstrated any evidence that aluminum adjuvants are toxic. i noticed I wasn’t the only
            schooling you on the massive dose difference between what is in a vaccine and the dose that induced the toxicity in the kid with kidney failure. Your inability to grasp the simplest concept of what is and isn’t a toxic dose indicates a severe lack of education/understanding of mathematics and scientific principles.

          • AutismDadd

            Wrong tomthebozo. Its a place to start, not the final word.

          • tomonthebay

            You seem to be starting at a grade school level.

          • AutismDadd

            How else can I get to your level. Can’t wait FOREVER for you to elevate.

          • tomonthebay

            As far as we know addumb, you don’t even have a degree.

          • AutismDadd

            And it will remain so.

          • tomonthebay

            We do know from your posts that you have no science background and you don’t understand anything complex.

          • AutismDadd

            Do you understand screw you tom?

          • tomonthebay

            Too bad if the the truth hurts your feelings duddyboy.

          • AutismDadd

            What truth would that be, the real truth or the corporate truth?

          • tomonthebay

            Facts are facts adudd. Study after study has demonstrated that vaccines don’t cause autism. It is also a fact that aluminum hydroxide in microgram doses IS NOT TOXIC.

          • AutismDadd

            And as it becomes lodged in the brain? Then what, they invent the personal computer?

          • tomonthebay

            Except it doesn’t so there is that.

          • AutismDadd

            So you deny actual evidence? pubmed/29413113

          • tomonthebay

            Exley again? Sorry. He has no credibility.

          • AutismDadd

            No tom, its you who is showing his inability to think. Denial isn’t evidence.

          • AutismDadd

            He has way more than you do.

          • Acleron

            Only to you. LOL.

          • AutismDadd

            Did you say you were retired or retarded?

          • Damo

            Only you would be proud of being ignorant.

          • AutismDadd

            I meant you, my bad.

          • Damo

            Try making sense. It might work for you.

          • AutismDadd

            Well I have little to compare to, debating lying shills all the time.

          • Damo

            Once again, you aren’t making sense. You seem to have combined two different incomplete thoughts into one badly constructed sentence.

            “Well, I have little to compare my language skills to, since all the other rhesus monkeys can’t even type.”

            “Debating lying shills all the time must be exhausting, Damo, so I think I will take a break for a while and concentrate on how to crush a beer can with my forehead.”

            Those are the two thoughts you must have had.

          • AutismDadd

            Way off Dumo…WAY OFF

          • Damo

            More nonsense from you. Try completing your thoughts before attempting to express them.

          • Acleron

            Duddy boy is so open minded his brains fell out a long time ago.

          • AutismDadd

            Answering for tom a lot. Did he leave you in charge today?

          • tomonthebay

            Not sure there was anything to fall out.

          • john tucci

            Gee you still think vaccination causes Autism, life must be tough with a closed mind, just how do you manage to get through a day, must be a minor miracle.

          • AutismDadd

            So instead I should be a mentally lazy smuck like you? No thanks

          • Deadpool

            PMC3680909: Let’s see. They treated an 18 month old at 150 mg/kg/daily of aluminum hydroxide for 4 days.

            18 months Weight (M) 22.4 – 26.0 pounds (F) 20.8 – 24.5 pounds. — I’ll use 22 pounds since that converts to 10 kg very nicely.

            So 150 * 10 = 1500 mg per day for 4 days. = 6000 mg.

            I won’t list all 13 vaccines that I’m using, but I’m posting a link for
            you and using the highest number when they use a range. Total for all 13 vaccines is 6.515 mg.

            The poison is in the dose. If I drank a gallon of water in a day, I’d be fine. If I drank 920 gallons of water in one day, I’d die.

            Or cigarettes? A pack a day is 7,300 cigarettes per year and that many will hurt you. Not kill you right away, but maybe take a few months off your life. What about 8 cigarettes per year? What do you think that many smokes would do to you?

            I agree that 6000 mg of Aluminum over 4 days is toxic. I disagree that 6(ish) mg is going to have any affect.

            The trade off for the risk you take by not getting immunized versus the possible (tiny) harm you receive by getting the shots gets even a needle-phobic guy like me asking for more shots.

            This also isn’t a study about Aluminum causing autism. This is a study about Aluminum causing Aluminum-toxicity, which presented with many symptoms similar to autism. The difference being that autism is genetic, since it can’t be cured; while Aluminum toxicity in this patient was cured with “continuous dialysis over 1 month.” Either that, or we just discovered that dialysis cures autism and we’re about to be very, very famous.

            Source for vaccine aluminum numbers. https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum

            ————–

            PMC5651828:

            I’m having a tougher time figuring out what this one actually says. While it theorizes that there’s some aluminum exposure from antiperspirant and vaccines, the serious cases it uses all got their aluminum exposure from years of direct aluminum exposure.

            It does provide a case for aluminum causing dementia-like symptoms and a possible link with Alzheimer’s, but it doesn’t say anything about it causing autism, allergies, or really anything without long-term exposure in amounts much greater than found in all the childhood vaccines you can give a child combined.

          • AutismDadd

            It says aluminum bad. Don’t want it in the brain.

          • ciaparker2

            J.B. Handley observed some years ago in “An Honest Mor-n,”

            “University of Pennsylvania’s Dr. Brian Strom, who has served on Institute of Medicine panels advising the government on vaccine safety says the prevailing medical opinion is that vaccines are scientifically linked to encephalopathy (brain damage), but not scientifically linked to autism.”

            Oh, thank God, vaccines won’t cause any autism. Brain damage I can live with. Thanks, Dr. Strom, for your service to the IOM–very helpful indeed.”
            The government has a game it plays: many cases have been compensated for vaccines having caused encephalopathy associated with autism, but not causing it. As in Hannah Poling. Yeah, what else is it and its minions going to say when they hear the tumbrels on their way?

          • AutismDadd

            No one knows better than I that lies are all they have. Unfortunately because it appears vaccines disrupt outbreaks and its cheaper than medical care, these ghouls can live with destroying lives. They lie about the amount of harm done. What’s so sick about it, is that they are proud of these accomplishments even as sick as that seems to us.

          • ciaparker2

            Part of the problem is that allopathic physicians HAVE no way to treat viral diseases. Or bacterial diseases like pertussis. Once the coughing starts, antibiotics will not treat it and are dangerous, though they will shorten the time the patient is contagious to others. Or bacterial diseases like tetanus: just muscle relaxants, antitoxin, antibiotics in some cases, but the disease just has to work itself out. Antibiotics in the case of a bacterial complication, but that’s about it. Symptomatic relief in some cases, assisted breathing, feeding, rehydration in others. But they can’t treat the disease itself. And so they just want to prevent it, no matter how beneficial it is in the long run for the vast majority.

            Homeopathy can both prevent them (if advisable) and treat them, and vitamin therapy like C and A is miraculous in most cases. And herbs like echinacea and elderberry WILL treat viruses.

            I’m looking forward to reading the books which will be written about this period in our history and these lying witch hunters.

          • sabelmouse

            hahaha

          • FrenchKissed

            If I could provide PROOF that autism is caused by parental age and/or genes, I’d be writing my Nobel prize acceptance speech right now instead of wasting my time on you.

            Still, there is a lot of evidence pointing towards genetics and parental age as contributing factors of autism and plenty of evidence that vaccination is not. I also couldn’t prove to you that autism isn’t caused by women chewing sugar free gum during pregnancy or men that excessively tickled their wedding tackle during their formative years. Lacking proof is not the same as lacking a working hypothesis or any supporting evidence.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cc9c0498ea8657364c7637c0ec2e816fce2b66f872dbfc12e6383c3d81577c5a.png

          • sabelmouse

            lol

          • AutismDadd

            So you have nothing but blah blah and worthless opinion. Pretty standard for those who attack families harmed by vaccines.

          • schpadoinkle

            but vicious with it.

          • ciaparker2

            AD,
            JT asked me for a study proving that an immune system trained by the childhood diseases is highly resistant to cancer for the rest of that person’s life, I put one up, a meta-analysis of over a hundred studies (twice) and it has been deleted both times. What am I to think of that?

          • AutismDadd

            I call it censorship. Some sites are so pro-vaccine injury they delete actual evidence.

          • ciaparker2

            My computer resists coming to this site, saying its security certificate is suspect. I’m wondering if it’s related to The Hill, do you remember that bastion of the Liquid Logic gang and its rampant abuse and censorship of the many sites its members were mods on?

          • AutismDadd

            Vague on the Hill stuff, but some of these pro-vaccine nutters are likely capable of arranging things to attack your computer.

          • Acleron

            Even Parker’s computer realises she is an idiot.

          • tomonthebay

            I think you are lying (as usual).

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Guess who’s the second least likely to tolerate the anti-vax nonsense?

          • AutismDadd

            Here’s a great read pmc3680909 Aluminum Encephalopathy following the use of aluminum hydroxide.

          • ciaparker2

            A competent immune system will stop a cancer before it develops much. And that’s the good thing about natural chickenpox, measles, etc., they train the immune system to operate at top efficiency and stop cancer in its tracks. That’s why there are so many studies showing that cancer rates are MUCH lower in those who had febrile illnesses as children. Five or more reduces cancer risk by 80%, each one a child has lowers the risk perceptibly.

          • ciaparker2

            I cited a meta-analytical study of over a hundred studies which demonstrated this, but I fear it has been censored. I put it up twice, it has been taken down twice. Anyone interested should write to me by private email, as it is extremely important, as it shows that getting the universal childhood diseases in childhood prevents most cancers in later life.

          • AutismDadd

            That possibly these sites are monitored and information is removed when it exposes the truth.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, that’s what I thought. That’s pretty low. Article says anti-vaxxers flexing our muscles. Well, that’s right, what else are we going to do to protect people from vaccine damage? It’s supposed to be a fair debate. But, since they really have very little to support their case, and rarely acknowledge our oceans of evidence of harm, they have to resort to cheating and censorship?

          • AutismDadd

            No fairness can be expected. Remember they are accused of causing SIDS and all labels on the autism spectrum and more. You and I know they screw up and admit enough to show they lie and cover up. It has seen a number of congressional hearings. It spawned the NVICP and the near blanket protection for vaccine makers. It is widely known Pharma OWNS congress. Many have sacrificed to speak out and all have been attacked by this same mafia. They kill children, going after people in forums is not beyond their scope.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, it won’t last forever. I’m just sorry that so many have to be severely damaged before that moment will come. And sorry that the American taxpayer is going to have to figure out how to come up with trilllions of dollars to compensate and care for the vaccine-injured. Well, not THAT sorry. Desperately seeking excuses for their st-pidity really won’t exonerate anybody.

          • Acleron

            Duddy Boy’s paranoia is showing. If such a system exists they are obviously quite clever in allowing you to post and continuously discredit your co sociopaths.

          • AutismDadd

            No stupid, they are obviously fine with my posts.

          • AutismDadd

            These clowns don’t get it. They claim vaccine TEACH the immune system while being unable to understand measles and chicken pox do that.

      • AutismDadd

        get lost shill bot

    • FallsAngel

      No pro-vax person supports giving vaccines to kids who have medical contraindications. Like CSOFOTOM, I’d like to know what the vaccine injury is.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

        Of course, if we do find one, they’re wrong and I’ll gladly call them a vax-pusher.

      • Iggy Semmelweis

        Not one? What are the “medical contraindications” you speak of?

        • FallsAngel

          I’ve never met a pro-vax person who thought anyone “allergic to a vaccine or a vaccine component” (except egg allergy) should get vaccinated . That is a contraindication for every vaccine. Some vaccines have their own specific contraindications too such as “Encephalopathy (e.g., coma, decreased level of consciousness, prolongedseizures), not attributable to another identifiable cause, within 7 days of administration of previous dose of DTP or DTaP”; hypersensitivity to yeast for Hep B; known severe immunodeficiency (e.g., from hematologic and solid tumors, receipt of chemotherapy, congenital immunodeficiency, long-term immunosuppressive therapy or patients with HIV infection who are severely immunocompromised); Family history of altered immunocompetence for MMR; history of intussusception for rotavirus; Tdap same as for DTP/DTaP; varicella same as for MMR plus pregnancy; Zoster same as for varicella (the old live vaccine).

          There are also a number of precautions for various vaccines. Really, Iggy, I thought you’d done all this “research”.
          https://www . cdc . gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/contraindications.html

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            I did my research and couldn’t find the part where all vaccine reactions have to occur ” within 7 days of administration of previous dose of DTP or DTaP” or any other vax for that matter. I guess if you don’t look at reactions past a week you can’t find them. Vaccine science = junk science.

          • FallsAngel

            That is absolutely *TOO* funny. You don’t even know how to look up the vaccine contraindication table. Yet you claim to be s-u-c-h and expert. Go Fly Your kite, Iggy!

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Not addressing the notoriously short duration of vaccine clinical trials was the smart move.

          • FallsAngel

            Has nothing to do with contraindications. You’re ignorant, Iggy.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            So the child has seizures and encephalopathy and is in a coma since the 8th day after his Pertussis vax and you continue to vax him “on schedule?” Do you do it while he’s still in a coma?

          • FallsAngel

            Go Fly Your kite, Iggy.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Let’s say the child comes out of the coma and the seizures stop and 2 weeks later they are ready for another “well visit.” Vax or no vax?

          • FallsAngel

            Knock it off, Iggy. The precaution is until neurologic status is clarified. That’s your answer. If it’s not clarified by the next well visit, then probably no. And don’t come back at me with “what do you mean ‘probably’?” You’re playing for a “gotcha” and I’m not going to play along, especially as you’re not playing with a full deck. You’ve never seen this contraindications table. You don’t know how to find it, despite all your vast research on immunizations.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            I’ve seen it. Of course it pretends like nearly the the reason someone would have an adverse event is because of an “allergy” to a vaccine component. That’s the only thing you’ll find as a problem when you don’t look past 7 days during clinical trials. It’s a joke.

          • FallsAngel

            First you claimed you never heard of it. You have no idea what you’re talking about. This isn’t about clinical trials.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            I claimed I never heard of it? That’s almost as funny as calling vaccines “immunizations”.

          • FallsAngel

            Eight hours ago, jagoff!

            “I did my research and couldn’t find the part where all vaccine reactions
            have to occur ” within 7 days of administration of previous dose of DTP
            or DTaP” or any other vax for that matter.”
            http://disq.us/p/1w00vo7

            You’ve never seen the contraindications table. It’s right there. Nor did I say “any other vax”.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Read it again, but slower. There you go. Your apology is accepted.

          • FallsAngel

            Don’t flatter yourself. There is no way I’d apologize for your anti-vaxism.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            LOL. To quote the brilliant words of some nitwit pro-vaxxer, “Go fly a kite, jagoff.”

          • tomonthebay

            Iggy lied? Shocked!!!

          • ciaparker2

            Sounds like Alfie Evans. First round causes strabismus, second round causes severe immune system suppression and many serious infections, and third round causes demyelinating encephalopathy and coma. I believe that at that point they stopped vaxxing him.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            When they deny vaccine injuries exist, they feel the right to vax right up until the brink of death.

          • Verna Lang

            “I did my research.” Translation: I don’t know how to Google the Vaccine Injury Table, therefore it does not exist. Tetanus portion of DTaP for injury covered and onset of first symptoms:
            B. Brachial Neuritis…… 2-28 days (not less than 2 days
            and not more than 28 days)
            Iggy, 28days > 7days.

          • Mike Stevens

            Oh Iggy!!
            …First unable to read, and now unable to count!

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            OK Verna. Some vaxxes are followed for a week, some for 4. What is the study that says all possible adverse events from vaccines must occur within a week or 4 weeks? PMID would be fine.

          • Verna Lang

            The Vaccine Injury Table does not use one single study. It is a little more complicated than that. It uses accumulated data from clinical trials and from reports following the introduction of the vaccine. And if you believe that there is an adverse event not on the table or which occurred after the time interval stated? There is always this from the pamphlet titled: “What You Need to Know About the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP)”

            If your injury/condition is not on the Table or if your injury/condition did not occur within the time period on the Table, you must prove that the vaccine caused the injury/condition.
            Such proof must be based on medical records or opinion, which may include expert witness
            testimony.

            Remember, your proof that the vaccine caused the injury will have to rely on more than “I know it did because I believe it!”

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            List a bunch of the PMID’s then. I like to read. And remember, your proof that an illness or injury or disorder that occurred 29 days after a vaccine CAN’t be due to the vaccine must rely on more than “I know it can’t because I believe it.”

          • Verna Lang

            Not all clinical trials of vaccines are published, but they do have to be registered with the government. That means PMIDs will not get you the data, but the data is there for the creation of the Injury Table. Some physicians and scientists are campaigning to get a database of all clinical trials so that the data can be scrutinized more widely by clinicians and scientists.
            The quote from the pamphlet did not say that adverse reactions cannot occur after 28 days. It stated that the applicant must supply proof of a reaction outside of the time frame of documented adverse effects. Proof that an adverse reaction within the 28 days is implied by the inclusion in the Table. In fact, 28 days is not the even maximum time. There are injuries and conditions on the Injury Table that can occur after 30 or 42 days, and in the immunocompromised, up to 6 months following vaccination.

          • AutismDadd

            WOW. You can list these serious and horrific adverse effects, yet you champion their use and callously lie about their safety. You are some piece of work.

          • tomonthebay

            You don’t understand the reply (as usual). Contraindications are not the same as adverse effects. Neither are precautions.

          • AutismDadd

            tom you are a goof. Contraindications come after the initial adverse reaction. Further inoculation could be fatal. Must be all that aluminum hydroxide you call harmless.

          • tomonthebay

            Some do, some don’t. Allergic reactions for instance are, but many other things such as other disease states or conditions are frequently contraindications as well. Your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the basics of pharmacology are on full display.

          • AutismDadd

            Deflection alert!!! tomfoolery want to change the course of discussion like all industry insiders.

          • tomonthebay

            You don’t understand what you are talking about, as usual.

          • AutismDadd

            Then you can explain why/how in detail…

          • Acleron

            Duddy Boy has a small list of baseless accusations that are deployed at random in place of reasoned discourse. They are:-

            You are lazy
            You are lying
            You lie by omission
            You are a shill
            You deflect

            It is clear that his understanding of basic English is lamentably poor.

          • AutismDadd

            And Acleron posts so much garbage its hard to know what the subject is.

      • AutismDadd

        But its not till AFTER harm is done that they know NOT to vaccinate again. Yet you and the pro-vac minions never stop pretending and lying about vaccines do you?

        • JGC

          AD< it's impossible when conducting a clinical trial to recruit enough subjects to identify adverse reactions (serious or otherwise) that occur with extremely low incidence, such as 1 in every 100,000 thousand or 1 million people vaccinated. That's why all vaccines are subject to extensive post-marketing surveillance.
          The good news is that post-marketing surveillance is demonstrably capable of picking up even these very rare events, like the I excess case in of encephalopathy that occurs for every 1 million people who receive the MMR vaccine.
          Which means, of course, that if vaccines did cause ASD's with sufficient frequency to have been the cause of the increase in ASD diagnoses we wouldn't be having this discussion: we'd have no trouble spotting it.

          • AutismDadd

            Oh, you mean like how VIOXX maimed and killed so many trusting consumers.

          • JGC

            Vioxx is an excellent example of the systems in place acting exactly as they’re intended to.

            It is impossible to conduct pre-approval clinical trials on sufficient scale to detect adverse reactions that occur with very low indicidence rates or in specific, small sub-populations of a population. It was the latter that was the case with Vioxx.
            In pre-approval clinical trials no significant difference in mortality was found between the cohort receiving Vioxx and the cohort receiving naproxen as a control, and there was no significant difference seen in the rate of myocardial infarction in patients receiving Vioxx and naproxen attributable to drug treatment.

            it was only in the post-marketing surveillance mandated following FDA approval, when the nomber of patients receiving Vioxx was much larger, that it was possible to detect excess cardiac events which only occurred in a samll sub-group of patients: those who prior to treatment already met criteria for low-dose aspirin prophylaxis of secondary cardiovascular events (those who had had previous myocardial infarctions, angina, cerebrovascular accident, transient ischemic attack, or coronary artery bypass).

            BTW, I don’t believe that Vioxx qualifies as an extremely dangerous drug–to my mind rather than being removed from the market entirely a black box warning stating it was not indicated for patients who had had previous infarctions, etc., would have served better, as in all other patients it was still found to be safe and effective.

            But if you’re going to attempt a meaningful comparison between Vioxx and vaccination, you must acknowledge that for vaccines currently in use the same large scale postmarketing surveillance has been and continues to be conducted with no indication that the risk associated with vaccination exceeds the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea tell that to those who were maimed, killed and lives ruined. Great system there FDA thanks Merck for all that. JGC says high and he will call you about the shill conference in January. As we can see JGC can’t post anything original. Its the same banal, redundant mantra that vaccine maiming and death are the best case scenario.

          • JGC

            I tend to be far more concerned about my posts being accurate than rather they’re original, AD, and as I’ve answered questions about vaccines, Vioxx, etc. many, many times in the past several years I do find it useful to repeat statements I authored in the past.

            “Its the same banal, redundant mantra that vaccine maiming and death are the best case scenario.”
            I have, however, never said this: what I have said is that the existing body of evidence demonstrates that the risk associated with routine vaccination is far lower–often by orders of magnitude–than the risk of remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against.

          • AutismDadd

            I take that to mean maiming/ death from vaccines are best case scenario.

          • JGC

            What evidence demonstrates that there’s a greater risked of becoming maimed or being killed by a routinely scheduled vaccine than there is of becoming maimed or being killed by the infectious disease it protects against?

            Measles, for example, killed ~139,000 people worldwide in 2010, according to WHO records. DO you have any evidence demonstrating the MMR vaccine killed as many or more people worldwide in that year?

            Any evidence demonstrating the MMR vaccine killed as many or more people worldwide in any year since it was added to the CDC’s recommended schedule?

          • AutismDadd

            I didn’t make those claims. I interpreted your claims and summed it up. You are FOR vaccine adverse events. You imply its the best case scenario.

      • AutismDadd

        Like MALNUTRITION ???? Really, not even in the Third World?

    • Brian

      PIC is anti-vaccine because they spread false and misleading information to vilify vaccination. Doing so makes you anti vaccine.

      • Iggy Semmelweis

        Mr. Vaccinated=unvaccinated should know all about spreading false and misleading information.

        • JoeFarmer

          I’ll bet good money that if I held a flashlight to one of your ears I’d see light in the other.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Science gets debated, insults don’t. Step up or move on.

          • JoeFarmer

            You are constitutionally incapable of participating in an intelligent discussion.

            Oh, and you owe me another irony meter.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            More insults and no science. You didn’t actually need to post anything.

          • JoeFarmer

            You said: “Mr. Vaccinated=unvaccinated should know all about spreading false and misleading information.”

            Prove it. Or continue to prove that you’re a real idiot. The choice is yours.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Insults = ignored.

          • JoeFarmer

            Translation: You can’t participate in a scientific discussion. Thanks for reminding everyone yet again.

          • AutismDadd

            I see you harassing, not debating. Flagged

          • Proponent
          • john tucci

            flagged for harassing.

          • AutismDadd

            That’s what I said…face palm!

          • AutismDadd

            Block or ban JoeFarmer

          • AutismDadd

            Quit trolling shill

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            No, science doesn’t get debated. Science gets demonstrated. Things like politics and religion are debated.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            When pro-vaxxers claim the science says something it doesn’t, and you point that out, and they ignore what is obvious, debate ensues.

          • JoeFarmer

            You’ve never done that.

          • AutismDadd

            Trolling in progress

          • Proponent
          • Ron Roy

            Look at who’s talking.

          • Proponent
          • Ron Roy

            Ever notice he talks but never says anything constructive?

          • Proponent

            Ahh, that’s cute.

            Ronald P, Roy has to confer with one of the other anti-vax stooges (AutismDadd, sabelmouse; aka shpadoinkle and and..) to steel himself before spewing more dangerous lies.

          • AutismDadd

            Those be his brain fumes

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Science is still not conducted via debate.

          • Ron Roy

            Today’s medical science is bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical companies. Think of all the drugs, that people had so many bad health consequences from, that had to be taken off the market. All these drugs had gone through studies which were published in peer reviewed journals then approved of by the FDA and yet after all this they still had to be taken off the market .All these drugs were ” demonstrated ” as being safe and effective. The only people that seem to benefit by these drugs are doctors, lawyers and drug companies that charge so much for these poisons that they can absorb the cost of most lawsuits. But, but vaccines are perfectly safe! The truth is finally become widespread and it’s only a matter of time before vaccines go the way of the dinosaur.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            That’s a claim, Ron.

          • Ron Roy

            No it’s a fact.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Fantastic news! That means you can demonstrate it. Of course, I’m still waiting for you to back up a claim you made 2 years ago so my hopes aren’t high….

          • john tucci

            Waiting waiting and the years roll by.

          • AutismDadd

            TROLL ALERT

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Iggy, we’ve been over this. Remember when we talked about smoking in regards to that?

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Yes, I do remember winning that debate. Thanks for reminding me. Good times.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            So no, you don’t remember it then.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Your denial of the facts is how you lost the last one too.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            What facts were the ones I denied?

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Why did you decide to comment on Brian’s claim that vaccinated = unvaccinated?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            We can address this as soon as you tell me what facts were the ones I denied. One thing at a time.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            You never answer anyone’s questions. It’s a smart move. This way you can’t be “wrong.”

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Hmmm….we can discuss this as soon as you tell me what facts I denied.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Listen time waster, maybe you can just find some grainy meme to make you point.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Hmm…you know when we can discuss this, right?

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            I’m guessing that when you say “discuss” you really mean “post grainy and eligible memes that don’t prove Iggy wrong and then claim scientific superiority because You can’t find the science Iggy cites because you are too dumb to remove “Dr.” from a PubMed query. Silly time waster.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            You can make all the guesses you want. But you know when you’ll actually be proven right or wrong.

          • Iggy Semmelweis

            Tw.

          • Mike Stevens

            Note how Iggy refused to answer your own question requesting evidence you had ever denied any facts, and instead accuses you of never answering anyone’s questions?

          • Mike Stevens

            Bet Iggy doesn’t answer, and just replies by asking another question..

          • Mike Stevens

            Iggy has a particularly bad memory.
            All the instances where he had his butt whupped from here to Rio and back have been conveniently deleted from his frontal lobes, along with any humanity and consideration for the suffering inflicted by disease.

      • AutismDadd

        What are your credentials?

        • Ron Roy

          He got a Boy Scout badge for learning how to apply a tourniquet.

          • sabelmouse

            🙂

          • AutismDadd

            They shouldn’t be used on the neck though.

      • Pastaballshafter

        But vaccine ‘efficacy’ relies on medical peer review for ‘proof’, that isn’t real evidence, it’s paid for PR. Thing is, you are either a psychopath or a doctor, at least you are a vaccine believer and that is soooooo stupid

    • Cat Sal

      YES!

    • JGC

      “Vaccines are dangerous”

      More dangerous than the infectious diseases they protect against, Donna? Citations needed.

      • AutismDadd

        Nice false equivalent. Seems to be like a contagious disease among you pro-vacs.

        • JGC

          What false equivalence? The question of whether or not vaccination (or for that matter any other medical intervention) is appropriately safe can only be answered by evaluating relative risk.

          • AutismDadd

            Clown. Same nonsense as always.

          • JGC

            Explain to me why the concept of relative risk is “nonsense”, AD.

          • AutismDadd

            You know what I mean clown.

          • JGC

            I’ll have to take that as a tacit admission you have no explanation to offer.

          • AutismDadd

            No it means you have done the usual and I’m not playing your juvenile game.

          • JGC

            Got nothing, huh? Why am I not surprised?

          • AutismDadd

            See? Your juvenile little game.

    • Proponent

      Inquire how much it is for a medical exemption..

      “We do not endorse particular physicians. However, we encourage you to become a member and gain access to our members-only forum and Speaker Seminars. Also, our events and meetings would be a good place to engage with other professionals who are knowledgeable in identifying patients who are more at risk for vaccine adverse events.

      Becoming a Physicians for Informed Consent member is your best resource for educating yourself and advocating for your patients.”

      … and by all means, make a donation to the grifters, as well.

    • Pastaballshafter

      Posting here is a waste of time, they are all septics, vaccine believers. Did you know that the Cochrane Collaboration has had a mass board walk out over refusal to continue the medical peer review fallacy? Board members have said that medical peer review as evidence is no more than industry funded PR – the lies are out. FckAngel is a particularly perverse backwards forwards fluff head.

      All that fake evidence they quote is one mass horror story.

    • AutismDadd

      And they ALWAYS know about the possible serious reactions AFTER earlier vaccines. So where are these SAFE / effective vaccines?

    • ciaparker2

      No, not rare at all since the vaccine and autism epidemics started in 1990. My daughter has autism from encephalitic reactions to vaccines (hep-B and DTaP) and I have MS from reactions to nine mercury-containing DPTs/dTs: the ninth paralyzed both arms for several days and I was later diagnosed with sometimes crippling MS by MRI.

      Now it’s one in 36 American children with autism (up from three in 10,000 in 1987), one in ten with ADHD, one in ten with bowel disease, one in twenty with a seizure disorder, one in nine with asthma, over half with an allergic condition, one in fifty with peanut allergy (Hib vaccine), almost all of them caused by vaccines.What a strange article. Acting as though we’d all forgotten the knock-down-drag-out fight three years ago to reverse Jerry Brown’s religious and philosophical exemptions to vaccines, in the war waged by Dr. Pan and his pharma patrons. As though we’d forgotten the hundreds of parents who went to the California capitol to file forward one at a time to say No, they were AGAINST the bill (many of them with vaccine-damaged children in tow), and only about ten pharma reps who came forward to say Yes. And it was passed despite extremely strong public opposition. Because of hundreds of children dying because there was no vaccine mandate? No, just to get the ball rolling for eventual universal vaccine mandates. And why? Very simple. $$$$$$$

      There were NO epidemics of serious diseases wiping out thousands of children in California pre-mandate. Most of the VPDs are for diseases either rare (meningococcal meningitis) or usually relatively mild and very beneficial (measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox), which train the immune system for a lifetime of service, including preventing cancer to a stunning degree in later life. And the vaccines are very definitely dangerous, causing acute or chronic brain inflammation (encephalitis) when the immune system reacts more vigorously to the invasion of vaccine antigens than it was hoped that it would do, or the immune system is sensitized to any of the vaccine ingredients, which often initiates an autoimmune or allergic process, in which the immune system mistakenly identifies its own system as one of the invaders contained in the vaccine. Or the mercury (still in all injected flu vaccines from multidose vials, i.e., most of them, in the same amount as thirty years ago) or aluminum, etc., cause extremely severe toxicity syndromes of their own.

      I recommend consideration, never compulsion, of the DT series for children over two years old, polio only if it comes back here, and Hib only for babies between four and eighteen months old who are not breastfed and ARE in daycare (which is VERY dangerous for children younger than two or three years old.).And even these, like all vaccines, can be dangerous. It is every parent’s responsibility to research the issue carefully before permitting any vaccine.

    • ReviewTheFacts

      Vaccines are safer than getting the disease. As far as “autism” is concerned, that’s been thoroughly debunked. The fact that the measles vaccine is given at a certain age, and that autism, if they have it, normally shows up later, is not cause and effect.
      If you eat carrots for breakfast, and then have a car accident on the way to work, did eating the carrots cause it, or was it the fact you didn’t get any sleep the night before and missed the stop sign? Oh, it MUST be the carrots! Same logic.

  • Ted Kuntz

    California has the most stringent vaccine mandated requirements in the world. What does the rest of the world know that Pan doesn’t? Why does the US have the highest rate of first day infant mortality in the world? Why does 54% of US children have a chronic illness? Its time to hold vaccine manufacturers and vaccine proponents legally accountable for the harm they are doing to our children.

    • shay simmons

      Really? Are California’s vaccine requirements more stringent than West Virginia?

    • FallsAngel

      Well, look who’s back! Hi, Ted! Why do you anti-vaxers like these diagonal pictures so much? You and David Foster, LOL!

      Please verify that “the US (has) the highest rate of first day infant mortality in the world. Oh, you can’t? It’s not the US it’s (drum roll). . . SOMALIA! What a surprise!

      According to some 2013 data, the US does have the highest rate in the “industrialized” world, whatever that means. Of course, we know that some countries count as stillbirths some infants who are considered live births in the US. Interestingly, Canada which uses the same definition as the US, has the second highest rate. Oh wait, aren’t you from Canada? Aren’t you a hotshot in some anti-vax group in Canada? Why yes, you are!

      Canada doesn’t give the Hep B vaccine (or any vaccine) at birth. The US does not give it to extremely premature infants, and “at birth” means while in the hospital, not necessarily in the moments after birth. So I guess it’s not vaccine, is it? BTW, Australia does give Hep B at birth (within a certain number of hours I believe) and Australia doesn’t seem to be high up on this list.

      Now give us a link to this 54% chronic disease blather. I’d like to see how the statistics were massaged to come up with that!

      https://www.livescience.com/36966-baby-first-day-deaths-rankings.html
      https://globalnews.ca/news/544709/canada-has-second-highest-rate-of-first-day-infant-deaths-in-industrialized-world-report/
      https://vaccinechoicecanada.com/personal-stories/first-no-harm-ted-kuntz/

    • Mike Stevens

      Lying isn’t a very persuasive way to convince people about vaccines, Ted.
      How about telling the truth?

      Oh no you can’t, can you, because that will just show how beneficial they are.

      • AutismDadd

        I never thought you’d admit lying is a very persuasive way to convince people about vaccines. I commend you on your honesty.

    • AutismDadd

      Great Brittain DOESN”T give a chicken pox vaccine. Makes one wonder.

      • Judith

        They don’t give it AutismDadd because they have found contacting children with chickenpox immunises the population naturally against shingles – it is nature’s way of protecting the population.

        • AutismDadd

          Thanks Judith. I was baiting the LURKERS. Well now they know and CAN’T lie by omission.

          • Proponent

            Yes, AutismDadd.. you truly are.. a master.. bater.

        • Mike Stevens

          Judith, the going rate for shingles is that one in 3 adults will get it in their lifetime.
          That’s using this “exogenous boosting” from contacting chickenpox that you claim is so wonderful.
          If exogenous boosting was a vaccine, you’d rightly be quite scathing about it’s high failure rate.

          But look here! ….There is a better way to eradicate shingles from everyone!
          All you need is to vaccinate everyone against chickenpox as a child, then they will be immune to catching it, and if they never catch it, when they are older it will never re-activate as shingles. How simple and logical can you get!

          Instead, you prefer to persist in the age old practice of Granma hoping that sweet little Jamie should get chickenpox as a child, risking scarring, pneumonia, encephalitis and death, just so as granny can get a modest exogenous boosting “natural vaccination”.
          …How disgusting of you. Do you really hate children that much?

          Granma can get a shingles vaccine is she wishes. Instead of being just 10% effective as exogenous boosting is thought to be, shingles vaccine is 90% effective. And cute Jamie can get her vaccination, so she doesn’t get any of those nasties.

          • ciaparker2

            BUT having chickenpox as a child greatly reduces your chance of getting glioma, a brain cancer.
            The one in three getting shingles is among those who don’t get the natural booster we used to get from chickenpox virus circulating in the environment. Before the varicella vaccine, shingles was very rare.

          • john tucci

            Nobody knows what cause brain Cancer, not even you. Just Google ” brain Cancer causes” and see for yourself.

          • ciaparker2

            A competent immune system will stop a cancer before it develops much. And that’s the good thing about natural chickenpox, measles, etc., they train the immune system to operate at top efficiency and stop cancer in its tracks. That’s why there are so many studies showing that cancer rates are MUCH lower in those who had febrile illnesses as children. Five or more reduces cancer risk by 80%, each one a child has lowers the risk perceptibly.

          • john tucci

            Please give me a link that I can read where a competent immune system will stop brain Cancer.

          • ciaparker2

            Here’s a study.

            “In a 2005 epidemiological study covering over 151 previous studies, researchers from the Department of Health Care and Epidemiology, University of British Columbia found an inverse association between acute infections and cancer development. According to the abstract of this study, entitled, “Acute infections as a means of cancer prevention: Opposing effects to chronic infections?”, exposures to febrile infectious childhood diseases were associated with subsequently reduced risks for melanoma, ovary, and multiple cancers combined, significant in the latter two groups.

            Furthermore, epidemiological studies on common acute infections in adults and subsequent cancer development found these infections to be associated with reduced risks for meningioma, glioma, melanoma and multiple cancers combined, significantly for the latter three groups. Overall, risk reduction increased with the frequency of infections, with febrile infections affording the greatest protection. In other words, children who experienced all the typical childhood infections were most protected from developing cancers in adult life.

            At a time when cancer is going to affect one in every two people, this finding should have made national news, and it should be taught at medical schools. National health policies should have been alternated radically, but nothing ever happened. We are still being told that having mumps in children must be avoided at all costs. Never mind that the temporary inconvenience of a largely harmless infection could protect a person from developing a devastating form of cancer 20 or 30 years later, which, in turn, is typically attacked with potentially deadly methods of treatment (chemotherapy, radiation and surgery).

            The discovery that acute infections are clearly antagonistic to cancer helps us understand why artificially induced fever has been successfully used for the treatment of cancer in European countries, especially in Germany. Of course, many doctors now treat fever as it were a disease and often prescribe toxic pharmaceuticals to put out the ‘dangerous fire.’ Yet, since fever is the body’s natural way of healing and eliminating pathogens such as infectious viruses and bacteria, squashing it with medication practically prevents any effective healing in the body. Fortunately, some good researchers now stand up for the body’s innate healing tactics, which our mothers and grandmothers had known about all along.”

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “According to the abstract of this study, entitled, “Acute infections as a means of cancer prevention: Opposing effects to chronic infections?”, exposures to febrile infectious childhood diseases were associated with subsequently reduced risks for melanoma, ovary, and multiple cancers combined, significant in the latter two groups.”

            febrile infectious childhood diseases”.. huh.

            But..

            ciaparker2: “In my daughter’s case, damaged by the hep-B vaccine at birth (with mercury), it was a fever from a summer flu which started her severe GI disease.”

            ciaparker2: “My uncle fell asleep in the sun and woke up with schizophrenia. I got the first symptoms of MS after a high fever. My daughter got the first symptoms of bowel disease after a summer flu with a high fever when she was seven. My Asperger’s nephew got bowel disease after a high fever from bronchitis.”

            ciaparker2: “My Asperger’s nephew had a fever which started HIS severe bowel disease. Fevers are beneficial.”

            … associated with an increase in schizophrenia incidence rates and severe GI/bowel disease and MS..

            ,,, ,,,

            Since you are here, ciaparker2.. do you have full access to the paper you are citing? Yes or no?

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com Reality022

            Nice due diligence on your part, Pro, finding the ciaparker2’s dishonest anti-vaccine double-speak.
            ‘Febrile fevers are very, very bad’ when they are caused by vaccines…
            ‘Febrile fevers are very, very good’ when they are caused by dangerous virulent infectious diseases…
            .
            One sign of a loopy crackpot – Holding two positions that are exactly opposite at the same time without seeing anything wrong with their thought process.

          • shay simmons

            It’s right up there with parker’s “breast-feeding provides immunity to childhood diseases” and her admission that, during the period she was breast-feeding her daughter she was able to infect the poor kid with chicken pox.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com Reality022

            Yep – From her own shingles blisters if I remember correctly.
            Talk about transmitting a disease by the most difficult route and, yet, still believing that ‘breast-feeding provides immunity to childhood disease’…

            At what point does her head essplode from the fact that reality does not seem to be cooperating with her anti-vaccine death cult fantasies?
            (I know. I know… Never – Due to her complete lack of reflection and serious case of Dunning-Kruger.)

          • Acleron

            Whenever I see that my blood runs cold. If breast feeding is so good then why is it necessary for kids to get ‘benign’ diseases such as measles.

          • Proponent

            I knew I forgot to do something.. highlight/bold the word; “fever” to dot the is and cross the ts on chiapet’s attempted deception.

            … …

            And.. done.

            Danke, sir.. for the prompt.

          • john tucci

            Provide the link so I can read for myself.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “Five or more reduces cancer risk by 80%, each one a child has lowers the risk perceptibly.”

            Complete and utter b.s… but, this is interesting..

            “Findings In this cohort study of 1 901 815 patients, use of complementary medicine varied by several factors and was associated with refusal of conventional cancer treatment, and with a 2-fold greater risk of death compared with patients who had no complementary medicine use.”

            (Source: JAMA Oncology | “Complementary Medicine, Refusal of Conventional Cancer Therapy, and Survival Among Patients With Curable Cancers” )

            … …

            Next?

          • FallsAngel

            What a crock of shYt.

          • shay simmons

            ” That’s why there are so many studies showing that cancer rates are MUCH lower in those who had febrile illnesses as children. ”

            So explain this to us, parker – Americans over 60 can generally be assumed to have had all of these diseases (chickenpox, measles, mumps) as they were born before vaccines were available. Which age group in the US has the highest rate of cancer?

          • Proponent

            Question: If an anti-vaxxer experiences cognitive dissonance, and no one is around to hear it … does it make a sound on the discussion boards?

          • Brian

            *Citations desperately needed

          • sabelmouse

            but…human hubris vs complex systems had to mess this up!

          • ciaparker2

            When the same stimulus produces the same result many times, with no evident alternative explanations, the scientific method presumes that that stimulus caused the result. In this case, those who had chickenpox as children had a much lower rate of glioma, a kind of brain cancer, than those who had not. We already know that the rate of many chronic diseases, including many cancers, all of the major ones except breast cancer, is much lower in those who have had natural cases of the childhood diseases (not the vaccines), and the more diseases they had, the lower their rates of cancer. The immune system needs the training offered by going through the natural diseases to teach it how to protect the person it belongs to throughout life. Natural chickenpox preventing glioma is just one of many examples of the benefits of the natural diseases.

          • john tucci

            I would like the link please so I can read for my self.

          • ciaparker2

            I put up a link twice, but both times it was deleted. Hmm. Who would have done that? Oh, yeah, I just remembered what site this is. OK, there are two possibilities.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            That is not true. The only study that made that claim was a badly done one from Japan. Stop cherry picking.

            And, shingles rate was going up before the chicken pox vaccine came out in USA. It has now started to decrease. So, your ideas are bunk.

          • Judith

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28276305

            “Out of 915 articles that were reviewed by the researchers, a total of 215 described breakthrough varicella. They decided that 34 of the articles met their inclusion criteria for their publication and in a shocking revelation, they identified that:

            5 articles that described breakthrough varicella with cases with pneumonia

            11 articles that described breakthrough cases with neurologic complications ; diagnoses included meningitis, encephalitis, acute cerebellar ataxia, transverse myelitis, and cerebellitis

            9 articles described hematologic complications

            5 articles described five breakthrough varicella patients with ocular complicaciones, which included keratitis, conjunctivitis, subconjunctival hemorrhage, retinitis, blurred vision, and hemorrhagic retinitis

            2 articles described renal complications

            7 articles described sepsis (bacterial or viral) as a complication in eight breakthrough varicella cases

            4 articles described three cases of breakthrough varicella with hepatic complications including hepatomegaly, hepatitis, and hepatic necrosis

            Other complications included hypotension and transient hearing loss, which were described in the two cases mentioned above.

            13 articles described a hospitalized breakthrough varicella case without mention of other organ involvement in addition to skin

            Under the title of Death, the authors wrote:

            “There have been six cases of fatal breakthrough varicella reported in eight articles, all described above. Five of these deaths were reported from the United States and summarized in the article by Leung et al; the 6th death was reported from Turkey by Dinleyici et al. The deaths occurred in one-dose vaccines (interval between vaccination and death was 1–13 years; information available for 5 cases), in children aged <18 years (ages 4, 4, 7, 9, 15, and <18 years) and 5 of the 6 occurred in immunocompromised persons due to either medical conditions or medications; the year of death was 1997, 2004, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2008–2013 for the death reported from Turkey (specific year of death not indicated in the publication).

            Reported complications included hepatitis, hemorrhagia, and sepsis; sepsis and thrombocytopenia; hepatitis and multi-organ failure: sepsis; encephalitis; andnmulti-organ failure.”

          • ciaparker2

            These are a few of the reported reactions to the chickenpox vaccine. Again, it is nearly always a very mild disease which confers permanent immunity. It may eventually result in shingles because the vaccine has eliminated the natural booster effect of the virus in the environment, but getting the vaccine may also result in shingles. The live virus, you know. Although shingles after the vaccine is less common than eventual shingles from the disease. The chickenpox vaccine is not given in the UK and most other countries.

            The CDC and FDA did a study on adverse events caused by the chickenpox vaccine, published in the JAMA (Wise, et al), Sept 13, 2000. It found that side effects occurred in 67.5 out of every 100,000 doses sold. 4% of these reports involved serious damage, including life-threatening events, hospitalizations, permanent
            disability, even death. Children under four had serious rather than mild adverse reactions at the rate of 5.3%, under two, 9.2%, those mistakenly vaxed before they were one, 14%.

            VAERS report #107121 one year old got shot, got rash, vomited, screamed shrilly, went into cardiac arrest and died four days after shot.

            87553 two year old got shot, got pericarditis, vasculitis, liver damage, and was hospitalized two weeks after shot.

            12210 four year old gets kidney damage two days after shot, two weeks later got superinfected chickenpox and was hospitalized.

            80082 four year old got lymphocytic leukemia, headaches, bruises, and decreased hemoglobin and platelet counts starting day after shot, was hospitalized for 28 days.

            218460 nine year old girl got Guillain-Barré syndrome from chickenpox vaccine, hospitalized for five weeks.

            114146 nine year old got serious blood disorder 13 days after shot,
            hospitalized for it

            175928 8 year old got dizzy and confused three days after shot, went into seizures and life-flighted to hospital

            25714 8 year old boy vomited and lost consciousness ten minutes after shot, diagnosed with acute respiratory distress and put in hospital

          • Proponent

            Thanks for regurgitating a post/comment of yours from 2012, ciaparker2.

            (^ See: cia parker @ April 13, 2012 at 8:45 pm in the comments section)

            Now.. everyone can read for themselves and that even after being corrected by others in that discussion … you still persist in propagating your lies and fear mongering.

            This, after more than six (6) years.. at least..

            Blue @ April 13, 2012 at 11:03 pm:
            “Interesting. But repeating the same fallacies does not make them anymore true they were the first time, Cia.”

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            What does the very first page of VAERs say?

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “BUT having chickenpox as a child greatly reduces your chance of getting glioma, a brain cancer.”

            ciaparker2: I had shingles when my daughter was nearly two, and I deliberately gave it to her so that she would get chicken pox and have permanent immunity. She had a fever for one day and vomited, and was covered with lesions for about two weeks, but she recovered without incident, and now I don’t have to even think about chicken pox, exposure, or whether a booster may become necessary in the future.”

            … …

            How nice of you to protect (read; ‘inflict harm on’) your child against your fevered imaginings.. and bestow upon her the risk of developing shingles later in life.

          • FallsAngel

            cia, everyone born before 1980 in the US had chickenpox, with a few outliers. This “research” you keep touting did not, IIRC, have a control group who got the vaccine which introduces the live virus into one’s body, which could have the same preventive effect, if it’s even true. I don’t know how the researchers found enough people with gliomas who didn’t have chickenpox to even do the study!

          • FallsAngel

            Before the varicella vaccine, shingles was very rare.

            Bald-faced lie, cia. Lying liars lie lots.

          • john tucci

            She does hate children because she told me it was okay if 400 died from measles every year.

          • Judith

            Third world countries children die from poor nutrition, poor sanitation, lack of clean water especially lack of vitamin A which makes getting measles worse.

            Over the last decade in the United States, the deaths of over 100 children — at the very least — have been linked to receiving a measles vaccine, compared with zero children dying from the disease itself, according to the U.S. government’s own compiled data. Put another way, an American child would have been infinitely more likely to die after receiving a measles shot, percentage-wise, than from getting the actual measles disease in the last ten years.

            https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/20132-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-zero-measles-deaths-since-04

          • john tucci

            No Judith the MMR vaccine cannot cause measles disease in people with healthy
            immune systems. However, a rash that looks like measles can be a side
            effect of the MMR vaccine and occurs about 7 to 12 days after getting
            the vaccine. The vaccine rash is non-infectious and will resolve on its
            own

          • sabelmouse

            as did children in what’s now considered the first world. pro vaxers would rather push vaccines than see 3rd world improvements like that.

            ”American child would have been infinitely more likely to die after receiving a measles shot, percentage-wise, than from getting the actual measles disease in the last ten years.”

            despite all those huge outbreaks?!!?!?!

          • sabelmouse

            nice taking out of context.

          • john tucci

            ciaparker2

            2 days ago

            So google it. MILLIONS of children have reacted to the MMR with
            autism and bowel disease, and many with other serious conditions as
            well. Look at the package insert.Yes. If push comes to shove, I
            am OK with 450 people out of four million cases a year dying of measles
            every year in the Us before the vaccine.

          • sabelmouse

            yes, i read that. again, context. out of 4 million! neither of us is against lowering that number, but not killing/disabling for it.

          • john tucci

            But there is no proof that vaccines are killing or disabling en mass compared to what vaccine preventable diseases can do. Are you like Cia in that you would be happy to see thousands die every year and millions suffer from disabilities that these vaccine preventable diseases can do?

          • AutismDadd

            False equivalent alert! Vaccines simply exchange one set of issues for other sets. Your foolish assumptions about safety and effectiveness are easily debunked by science you are other minions ignore.

          • john tucci

            Provide the evidence.

          • AutismDadd

            Do some research LAZY. No wonder you pro’s never learn, you’re too mentally lazy.

          • john tucci

            You made the claim, burden of proof is on you. I am not doing the work for you to back your claim.

          • AutismDadd

            Because you are lazy.

          • john tucci

            No, it is because you are unable to back up lies.

          • AutismDadd

            Why would I back up lies, I don’t make vaccines?

          • tomonthebay

            Exactly.

          • sabelmouse

            pro vaxxers are like vegans.

          • john tucci

            Most vegans I know are anti-vaxxers because vaccines are not vegan.

          • sabelmouse

            missing the point, as usual.

          • Damo

            So you agree that ciaparker is ok with 400 children dying every year.

          • sabelmouse

            not out of context.

          • Damo

            In context it said that 450 out of 4 million will die. So, in context, you are ok with ciaparker being ok with 400 children dying. The context, in this case, doesn’t change anything.

          • sabelmouse

            did die, could die, could be reduced further. as someone chronically ill for nearly 50 years i would rather have died.

          • Damo

            If that were true, you would be dead. You are a horrendous liar.

          • sabelmouse

            what exactly?or is it just you making no sense as usual? why would i be dead?

          • Damo

            If you truly would have rather died than live with chronic illness, you would have made that choice.

            You didnt, and I am not advocating suicide by any means, but your chronic illness is not as bad as you make it sound.

          • sabelmouse

            that’s pretty dense, even for you. never mind insulting.

          • Damo

            No, it isnt. I am just showing that you exaggerate –or just downright lie.

          • sabelmouse

            you fail at any kind of logic, or comprehension. ignorance can be remedied, stupidity …

          • Damo

            You telling me that I fail at logic is akin to Donald Trump saying the media lies.

          • sabelmouse

            the media does lie. even trump can be right at times.

          • Damo

            Lol. You prove my point.

          • AutismDadd

            Sounds like you are counselling a possible suicide. Are you criminally insane?

          • Damo

            Lol. You are an idiot.

          • AutismDadd

            You didn’t answer the question.

          • Damo

            No need to. You are an idiot that asked an idiotic question.

            If it weren’t for the entertainment value of watching you find new ways of embarrassing yourself you would contribute nothing to the conversation.

          • AutismDadd

            Surely that is projection

          • Damo

            Surely you don’t know what projection means and are just repeating something has once said about you (ironically, you project about projection).

          • AutismDadd

            Pretty weak dumo

          • Damo

            You can do better.

          • AutismDadd

            No question, but I doubt you can

          • Damo

            Pretty hard to beat perfect.

          • AutismDadd

            Logic…PASS

          • Acleron

            Duddy boy demonstrating that even the little words like ‘not’ are far beyond him.

          • AutismDadd

            Acleron supporting counselling suicide.

          • Acleron

            You are lying yet again.

          • AutismDadd

            10,002

          • Acleron

            Lying yet again.

          • AutismDadd

            10,005

          • Mike Stevens

            400? Usually she says she’s OK with 450 dying each year when she used to talk to me about measles.
            “No big deal”, she’d say. You see, some of them were already unwell or immune compromised, or shock horror! …some weren’t pure white!
            So its OK if they die.

          • john tucci

            True Mike, I was being conservative.

          • shay simmons
          • AutismDadd

            But you would parrot that the harm from vaccination is preferable to infectious disease, making you an advocate of adverse vaccine reactions. JGC also feels vaccine injury and death are best case scenario.

        • Mike Stevens

          “nature’s way…”

          Yeah, sure Judith… “nature’s way” is absolutely marvellous!
          …Like smallpox was nature’s way of controlling overpopulation.

        • shay simmons

          ” it is nature’s way of protecting the population.”

          I notice you aren’t using nature’s way of communicating.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Okay, Judith, here:

          Next time your kid has playgroup or something, line all the kids up. Now, take 1/5th of them out of the playground (just out of the gate will do) and that is Nature’s price of immunity.

          Of course, the difference is that you can then send the kids back. Nature won’t.

          • Judith

            Ok CSOFOTOM – you believe in herd immunity – you might want to consider that vaccines will not stop disease because they are very ineffective.

            Herd Immunity” is a myth as adult vaccination rates would also have to be very high, just like rates for children – you need the 95% threshold needed to achieve herd immunity for measles, the vaccination rate of all the adults. According to the CDC, adult vaccination rates have been, and remain, woefully low, as the CDC’s 2016 survey–Vaccination Coverage Among Adults in the United States, National Health Interview Survey— explained: According to the CDC, it appears that adult vaccination rates for most vaccines ARE BELOW 50%. how do we achieve “community immunity” if less than half the adults are playing along? We don’t. Also It actually gets even more confusing. As an example it turns out the pertussis vaccine (whooping cough) doesn’t keep you from carrying and spreading the disease.

            Mumps: Researchers from the involved state health departments and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied 1,648 of those cases. The researchers found that 89 percent had received the recommended two doses of mumps vaccine. The outbreak was traced to one of the camp partcipants, an 11-year-old boy who also received two doses of the mumps vaccine but still contracted the disease.

            In the midst of all the panic and revaccinations, vaccine resistance by pertussis bacteria is now emerging. The prolonged whooping cough epidemic in Australia that began in 2008 has predominantly been caused by a new genotype of B. pertussis. The strain was responsible for 31 percent of cases in the 10 years before the current epidemic, but has accounted for 84 percent since. This represents a nearly three-fold increase, indicating that the bacteria have genetically evolved under the selection pressure from the present vaccine. Dr. Lan of the 2012 study has been quoted 565 as saying that the vaccine is less effective against the evolving strain, and any immunity that is gained wanes rapidly.566Pertussis bacterial vaccine resistance has also begun to be reported in the United State

            The efficacy of the measles vaccine has also come under serious scrutiny in recent years. In, 2014 Dr. Gregory Poland, Editor in Chief of the journal Vaccine and founder of the Mayo Clinic’s Vaccine Research Group, published an alarming statement that the measles vaccine has a poor efficacy record. Despite the high 95% measles vaccination compliance among children entering kindergarten, and the CDC’s propaganda that the MMR vaccine has defeated the virus, measles outbreaks continue to increase. During the first half of 2014, there were 16 large measles outbreaks in the US. Dr. Poland does not believe this is due to unvaccinated individuals, but because of the vaccine’s failure to confer immunity.

          • Mike Stevens

            “you need the 95% threshold needed to achieve herd immunity for measles, the vaccination rate of all the adults.”

            Judith, adults have either had the measles naturally (if they are over 55ish), or have had measles vaccine when they were kids. Vaccination-induced immunity is very durable, you know.

            If it wasn’t, then indeed whenever there was a measles outbreak in the USA, there would be thousands of adults getting measles (because their vaccine immunity would have worn off).

            That doesn’t happen, does it though?

            As for mumps… vaccine induced immunity is less robust than for measles, and certainly it’s possible that more of the population remain vulnerable, despite vaccination. That’s why when there is a mumps outbreak, you often find that many or most have previously been vaccinated.

            But even with mumps, there is sufficient herd immunity to protect the population at large (you need about 80% herd immunity thresholds). That’s why when there is an outbreak somewhere like Harvard university, there are only 100 cases, rather than there being 20,000 cases involving all students and faculty.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Got any evidence though?

          • Proponent

            Erhm.. are these your own words, Judith?

            Asking for a friend.. that believes quoting someone and then, not attributing the source is dishonest.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Cia, I have some questions for you:

            I don’t give a frick what anyone believes; i care what evidence they have to support their position – do either your or Dr Poland have any?

            Second question: Can I give you a disease that I don’t have? If your answer is ‘No’ then you believe in herd immunity too. Where the disagreement might be is how effective various measures to strive for are.

        • Mike Stevens
          • Ron Roy

            What proof do you have that these people died of Diphtheria? And if they did indeed die of that disease it only shows what happened to people in those days because of bad nutrition. If you follow the history of all diseases you will see as diets improved diseases, or at least deaths from diseases, went down.

          • schpadoinkle

            not to mention sanitation/living, and working conditions generally. when people dies of typhoid/typhus/dysentery in concentration camps we don’t assume it was lack of vaccines.

          • Acleron

            Where is the correlation let alone the causation of death from disease related to diet?

        • FallsAngel

          Your country gives the chickenpox vaccine! You really should quit poking your nose in all the other countries’ business, Judith.

    • JoeFarmer

      Literally every single sentence you wrote is demonstrably incorrect.

      I’m going to have to conclude that you’re either really, really poorly informed or a pathological liar.

    • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

      Mississippi and West Virginia have similar mandates as California, as does Australia. USA has the highest IMR of developed countries because we are the only country in that list without universal healthcare and we have the highest poverty rate of any developed country. 54% of children do not have a chronic illness. You are lumping together the statistics on how many children need speech therapy or help in school for a learning disability and those who are obese with all other children and calling them all “chronic illnesses.” That we give children help for learning and speech difficulties, when we did not when I was a child in the 70s, is a GOOD THING. That some children are obese is not good but it has nothing to do with vaccines.

      • Judith

        https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/birthdefects-dd-keyfindings.html

        Data from the study showed that developmental disabilities (DDs) are common: about 1 in 6 children in the U.S. had a DD in 2006–2008. These data also showed that prevalence of parent-reported DDs has increased 17.1% from 1997 to 2008. This study underscores the increasing need for health, education and social services, and more specialized health services for people with DDs.

        The prevalence of any DD in 1997–2008 was 13.87%
        Prevalence of learning disabilities was 7.66%;
        Prevalence of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) was 6.69%;
        Prevalence of other developmental delay was 3.65%; and,
        Prevalence of autism was 0.47%.
        Over the last 12 years, the
        Prevalence of DDs has increased 17.1%—that’s about 1.8 million more children with DDs in 2006–2008 compared to a decade earlier;
        Prevalence of autism increased 289.5%;
        Prevalence of ADHD increased 33.0%; and,
        Prevalence of hearing loss decreased 30.9%.
        In addition, data from this study showed
        Males had twice the prevalence of any DD than females and more specifically had higher prevalence of ADHD, autism, learning disabilities, stuttering/stammering and other DDs;
        Hispanic children had lower prevalence of several disorders compared to non-Hispanic white and non-Hispanic black children, including ADHD and learning disabilities;
        Non-Hispanic black children had higher prevalence of stuttering/stammering than non-Hispanic white children;
        Children insured by Medicaid had a nearly two-fold higher prevalence of any DD compared to those with private insurance; and,
        Children from families with income below the federal poverty level had a higher prevalence of DDs.

        • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

          Ten years ago, my child was not diagnosed as autistic. Today, she is. Why? It is not because she changed! It is because the spectrum widened and we know more, particularly about girls, and we have services to help her and accommodate her needs. BETTER DIAGNOSIS.

        • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

          When you and I were children, those who had special needs were ignored or they were sent home to be schooled. WE DO BETTER NOW.

    • Proponent

      Why do you want to ban all vaccines, Ted?

      “I believe we need to go even further. Rather than fight to ban vaccine mandates, we need to fight to ban vaccines. It is clear to me this well organized and well funded assault by the “medical industry” is destructive and needs to end.”

      … …

      Oh, and..

      Ted Kuntz: “Its time to hold vaccine manufacturers and vaccine proponents legally accountable for the harm they are doing to our children.”

      What information lead you to this erroneous belief of yours?

    • JGC

      “Why does the US have the highest rate of first day infant mortality in the world?”

      Primarily because the criteria for recording a death as a case of infant mortality are not uniform across nations. In the US records all deaths occurring within hours of delivery are recorded as instances of infant mortality, whereas in many other nations they will instead be recorded as stillbirths.

      “Why does 54% of US children have a chronic illness?”

      I give up–why? If you’re implying it’s because of routine childhood vaccination I’m afraid you’ll have to provide actual evidence demonstrating your proposed causal association exists before we can address this question further.

      What harm do you believe vaccine manufacturers and vaccine proponents are doing to children, and what evidence demonstrates that harm actually is being caused by routine childhood vaccination? Be specific.

  • AutismDadd

    I like this Dr Shira Miller. And Physicians for Informed Consent. HEY aren’t physicians VACCINE EXPERTS?

  • Lee O. Welter

    Is informed consent still essential to ethical medicine? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2840885/ Would the Medical Board of California discipline an MD for violating this principle?

  • Lee O. Welter

    Shrinking pocket? Is Dr. Pan expending his pocket while shrinking ours? What’s this about — https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html ?

    • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

      Dr Pan is not expanding his pocket in relation to vaccines. All donations to lawmakers are public record. I have seen his record. You are a liar.

  • thevaccinemachine

    It’s called vaccine-choice, Morons

    • Andrew Lazarus

      We don’t have restaurant-workers-wash-hands-after-using-the-toilet choice either.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

        But vaccine choice is still extant. Nobody will jail you for not vaccinating your kids.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      Right.

      Just like driving-choice

      Drink-or-drive
      Vaccinate-or-homeschool

      That’s your choice.

  • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers

    Vaccination causes brain injuries and immune disorders. They must never be mandated. Most deserve to be taken off the market because they are not safe.

    • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

      Post one study verifying that vaccines have greater risks than benefits.

      • Judith

        Former NIH Director Dr. Healy goes on to explain:

        “I think the government, or certain health officials in the government, are – have been too quick to dismiss the concerns of these families without studying the population that got sick. I haven’t seen major studies that focus on – three hundred kids, who got autistic symptoms within a period of a few weeks of a vaccine.

        The reason why they didn’t want to look for those susceptibility groups was because they’re afraid if they found them— however big or small they were—that that would scare the public away. First of all, I think the public’s smarter than that; the public values vaccines. But, more importantly, I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show! “

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Judith, that’s a quote. Can you at least provide the PMID for that?

  • brothersun

    CHUCK MCFADDEN, You say “a preponderance of clinical evidence” but I think you would be hard pressed to cite some of that. Most studies by the way are epidemiological, not clinical, but NO study has compared the rate of disease in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated, and without such a valid control group, studies are useless. Also, NO study has ever looked that the safety/adverse health consequences of the combination of shots that a child receives if the parents follow the CDC recommended schedule.

    • JGC

      ‘Most studies by the way are epidemiological, not clinical”

      And that would be problematic because…?

      “NO study has ever looked that the safety/adverse health consequences of the combination of shots that a child receives if the parents follow the CDC recommended schedule”

      You mean, no studies like Glanz et al (PMID: 29509866), for example?

      • brothersun

        That study looked at “Antigen Exposure”. The number of antigens is not the problem with the bloated vaccine schedule. It’s all the other ingredients, such as the nano-particulate aluminum adjuvants which have been shown to travel to the brain and we know aluminum in the brain causes motor neural death. And the other chemicals, too numerous to list here, some of which are know carcinogens, The problems with epidemiological studies is that they can be easily manipulated by selecting only data that supports the desired conclusion. No one ever tests whether the vaccinated actually have less sickness than the unvaccinated, because if the did that, the hoax of vaccination would be over and their cash cow would be dead.

        • JGC

          Vaccine formulations don’t incorporate ‘nanoparticulate aluminum adjuvants’, sun: they may instead incorporate aluminum salts.

          Re: thoise “other chemicals, too numerous to list here”,what evidence demonstrates that any constituent forum in vaccine formulations is toxic, carcinogenic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination?

          Be specific. The dose, after all, makes the poison.

          “The problems with epidemiological studies is that they can be easily manipulated by selecting only data that supports the desired conclusion.”

          Do you have any actual evidence that every epidemiological study, performed by multiple independent researchers working for multiple public and private public health agencies and academic institutions in multiple nations around the globe over the past several decades, has been manipulated in the manner you speak?

          Or does your argument ultimately take no form other than “Well, it could happen, couldn’t it?”

          “No one ever tests whether the vaccinated actually have less sickness than the unvaccinated, because if the did that, the hoax of vaccination would be over and their cash cow would be dead.”

          Nonsense: the entire purpose of Phase III clinical trials is to establish efficacy.

          • brothersun

            From your replies you sound like a typical MD who is not keeping up with the latest scientific research but has the arrogance to think that you’re the smartest person in the room. The documentary Vaxxed exposes in detail how the CDC manipulated study data to hide the link between the MMR and the rate of autism in black boys. Dr William Thompson, one of the co-authors on the study confessed to the fact that his boss at the CDC instructed the study team to destroy relevant data. He kept a copy of the data and later released it to an outside researcher Dr Brian Hooker, and so we can see the raw data before it was destroyed, It showed a statistically significant link.

          • JGC

            I’m not an MD: instead I’ve been employed as a research biologist/immunologist/molecular biologist for about 4 decades now. I don’t claim to be the smartest person in the room (at least while posters like Mike Stevens , Dorit Reiss, etc. are also in the room).

            But I do think I’m far more aware of the body of actual evidence regarding vaccine safety and efficacy, much more capable of distinguishing between evidence and everything else (such as anecdote and arguments from numbers, popularity and post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacies, etc. than are anti-vaccine activists.

            Dr. Thompson: he did nothing of the sort: no data at all was destroyed: redundant hard copies of data preserved in electronic format was destroyed as per the CDC’s established record retention policies.

            Brian Hooker did not demonstrate a statistically significant link: he’s analysis was so methodologically flawed that the paper was rapidly retracted (among other things, he analyzed data from a case control study s if it were from a cohort study, and he failed to adjust p values to reflect the fact that multiple comparisons were being made).

            But just for fun, let’s assume that after torturing the data set within an inch of it’s hypothetical life, the results Hooker’s analysis yielded was valid. What would he have accomplished?

            Proving once again that Wakefield was wrong.

            Remember, the only ‘statistically significant’ result he force the data set to cough up was between vaccination and autism in African American males who received the MMR vaccination prior to 36 months of age.

            If you’re not African American? You’re perfectly safe.

            If you’re female? No worries.

            If you are both African American and male, but either haven’t received an MMR vaccination or haven’t received an MMR vaccination before 36 months of age, it’s all good.

            And I’ve seen the raw data: it was made available through a FOIA request and can be found online. I didn’t see any sign of the study protocol being altered, or data being covered up.

            Why don’t you indicate in what specific document Thompson provided you think that evidence can be found?

          • brothersun

            Yes, I know that most adjuvants are AL salts. I used the word “nano” to express the fact that the AL component of the salt is so small that the human body has no way of getting rid of it. Recent research has found that in our blood the macrophage gobble up the AL and transport it to the brain during a “cytokine storm”. I’ll look for the study but, here’s an older one that shows we’ve known about the dangers of AL in vaccines for a while. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23609067

          • JGC

            ” I used the word “nano” to express the fact that the AL component of the salt is so small that the human body has no way of getting rid of it.”

            And if it were true that the human body has no way of getting rid of aluminum ions in solution you’re mischaracterization might be excusable. Since it’s not, however…
            Re: you’re reference? It’s to Tomljenovic and Shaw. If you know anything about the evidence for ans against aluminum adjuvant safety you must know the claims advanced in that article have been rebutted.

          • brothersun

            The fraud is that vaccine makers define “efficacy” as creating an “immune response” which they track by looking at antibody titers. This is a fallacy because, antibodies do NOT cause immunity, although they are often present with immunity. Just as smoke is not the cause of fire, but is often present with fire. So, it turns out that vaccine science is guilty of the logical fallacy of implying causation from correlation. The public thinks that when you say “vaccines are tested for efficacy” that means you test if the vaccine actually prevents disease. Nothing of the sort takes place in vaccine testing. They just look for antibodies and assume that will make the person immune. That is fraud.

          • JGC

            They define ‘efficacy’ as reducing the risk of infection in vaccinated populations as compared to the risk in unvaccinated populations, sun.

            See for example Review of the Persistence of Herpes Zoster Vaccine Efficacy in Clinical Trials,PMID: 26602282.

            From the abstract (bold for emphasis):

            FINDINGS:

            Six studies were included in the review. The zoster vaccine reduced the risk of herpes zoster by 51.3% to 72.4% in 2 Phase III trials. Primary and other analyses showed the vaccine was effective at reducing the burden of illness (61.1%), postherpetic neuralgia (66.5%), disease interference on functional status (66.2%), and disease impact on health-related quality of life (55%) compared with placebo. Surveillance studies showed a decrease in vaccine efficacy for reducing the incidence of herpes zoster during follow-up years 3.3 to 7.8 (39.6% relative reduction) and 4.7 to 11.6 (21.1% relative reduction).

          • brothersun

            My reply is not showing here, but I got your reply to it, so… regarding Dr William Thompson confessing that he was instructed to destroy data in the CDC study on the MMR and autism, I recommend watching “Vaxxed” to hear Dr Thompson’s own words in recorded conversations with Dr Hooker. From your reply, it sounds like you’ve only read articles that “debunk” him, but have not seen Vaxxed. Why would a top scientist risk losing his career to confess to doing what they did on that paper? How do you debunk a confession. Your position is very tortured logic.

          • JGC

            Hear his own words, entirely without context , secretly recorded without his permission and released without his consent–are those the words you’re talking about?

            Vaxxed purports to be a documentary, but it’s a documentary to the exact same extent that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a legitimate historical document.

            “Why would a top scientist risk losing his career to confess to doing what they did on that paper?”
            What is it you believe they did on that paper?
            They didn’t destroy data.
            They didn’t alter the study protocol.
            They didn’t engage in a conspiracy to conceal evidence of any casual associations.
            So what do you think they did, and what evidence demonstrate they did it?
            How do you debunk a confession–that’s a serious question? You examine the available body of pertinent evidence and determine if the confession is credible. If I confessed to having killed Lincoln, decades before I was born, would you argue “He must actually have done it–confessions can’t be debunked?

  • Mike Stewart

    The anti-vaccine movement is gaining steam. It is fueled by the incessant lies from the pharmaceutical industry, and those political figures that work for them. The people defending vaccines in this forum know about the corruption. Anyone that has the intelligence to put a sentence together knows the industry pays for studies that give them the results they want. The appropriate government officials will do something only when they are forced to by a very passionate minority. They will also realize there is not enough money to care for all of these children that are being poisoned by the very rich pharmaceutical companies. The masks are coming off the liars in this industry and their minions, and the lawsuits will follow.

    • Mike Stewart

      The proper remedy is to force the pharmaceutical industry to pay for the care of all of the children and adults that have been harmed by vaccines, and for those that knew of the dangers, including the risk of death, to face criminal charges.

      • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

        Why should the pharmaceutical industry pay for those how have a rare reaction to their products? Does the shellfish industry pay for shellfish allergies? I never got compensation when I had an allergic reaction to sulfa drugs.

        • Mike Stewart

          They should pay because they are doing a vast amount of harm to millions of children. Your “studies” are a fraud and you know it.

          • john tucci

            The studies are not fraud, if you think they are then pony up with some evidence, talk is cheap.

          • Mike Stewart

            This is a discussion forum, not a court of law. That is not only coming, but in progress with more to come. Stay tuned.

          • john tucci

            You said “studies are fraud” and your proof of that would be what?

          • Mike Stewart

            The proof is in the fact that vaccines are harming millions of babies and children but the studies claim it is not happening. The “proof” will be shown in the courts.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            But SIDS rate is at an all time low and infant mortality rate in USA is at an all time low. Yes it could be lower but it is at an all time low. And SIDS and IMR in all other developed countries are at all time lows. As we vax more, babies die less.

          • Judith

            In a cross-national study published in Health Affairs researchers noted that even though the U.S. spends more on children’s health care per capita than other nations, it is “the most dangerous of wealthy nations for a child to be born into.” U.S. infants are 76% more likely to die before their first birthday and one of the top five causes of infant deaths in the U.S. is sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

            The Health Affairs authors propose only that differences in income, education and the social safety net are to blame for the differences between the U.S. and the other studied nations but, there is another “elephant in the room” explanation that the authors studiously ignore: American infants receive more vaccines in their first year than infants anywhere in the world and many of those vaccines are administered in bundles at well-baby visits around two and four months—exactly when nine out of ten SIDS deaths occur.

            https://worldmercuryproject.org/news/the-plausible-connection-between-vaccines-and-sids/?utm_source=mailchimp

          • Mike Stewart

            I love the link, Kennedy is doing great work.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            LOL He’s a former drug addict, attorney clinging to bad science and making up things to stay in the limelight and try to get a win for his client, Rolf Hazelhurst. It’s sad.

          • Mike Stewart

            Actually he is a very passionate man that actually cares about humanity, and he is doing something about it. He will win.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            He’s a joke.

          • Mike Stewart

            Oh, and about that infant mortality rate in the US shown above. Comment?

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            I commented in full. Read my posts to Judith. Read my blog post

          • Mike Stevens

            If you think vaccines cause the IMR to go up, please explain this chart, will you?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8a490397958c52f7f0a158edf2542ae8c40a95dcddaf3377dc9d7f8ab8d6243e.png

          • Mike Stevens

            You’ll love this too then:
            (It demonstrates how if one uses the same IMR criteria for the US as is used for IMR in Sweden with the appropriate demographic adjustments, you can see that the US IMR is nearly as low as that of Sweden).

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/999534a86cdd61e5699897f8f0b64eefb1ff3c0a9a38fde9570c839b7fa95860.jpg

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            There is good information on why, Judith, if you would stick to valid science. Poverty and being of color are closely linked with infant and maternal mortality rates. White upper and middle class American women and babies have similar birth outcomes to other developed countries. All women of color and all women in poverty have abysmal birth and maternity stats. Why? Lack of good healthcare and poverty, which means lack of good health.

            It has nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines. We need to pay more in taxes so we have universal healthcare and greater social services to halt poverty. When that happens, we will be like every other developed country on earth.

          • Mike Stewart
          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            No, we are not the most vaccinated. Japan, Israel, Australia, and Canada all have similar vax schedules. France, Finland, Norway, and Iceland are close.

            https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/30/usa-does-not-vaccinate-more-than-other-countries/

          • Mike Stewart

            Your source shows the number of diseases vaccinated against, not the number of vaccinations/shots. It is called obfuscation. Since you are clearly a shill for the pharmaceutical industry, I will not engage you further in discussion. Good day.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            LOL I am not a shill. If you would read the about page on my blog, you would see I am an autism mom and teacher. You are pretty lame.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Since Kathy is so clearly a shill for the pharma industry, you’ll have no problems demonstrating that fact, right?

          • JoeFarmer

            ” Since you are clearly a shill for the pharmaceutical industry…”

            Translation: “Since I am unable to support any of my claims I will show my desperation by playing the shill card and run away.”

          • shay simmons
          • john tucci

            So you can not give us any “proof” That does not surprise any of us here.Talk is cheap.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            You don’t have proof of your claims. Nuff said.

          • FallsAngel

            In the courts? They don’t decide scientific evidence.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            As it’s a fact, you’ll be able to show it.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The proof is in the fact that vaccines are harming millions of babies and children”

            Oh, you have “proof” of this?
            Then please show it to us.
            I’m always willing to learn new things and to change my mind… here is your opportunity to do so for me.
            Perhaps just post the single most convincing piece of evidence…

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            I am sure he is thinking about the recent claim by RFKjr and Del and JB Handley that the government’s attorneys lied during the autism omnibus hearings and the hannah poling case really means vaccines cause autism. It’s so ridiculous and old and long ago debunked it is sad that they are dredging it up again. Sad. Pathetic. I made a meme

          • Judith

            “My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, where I have worked since 1998,” Thompson stated in August 2014 on the law firm’s website. “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.”

            “Here’s what I shoulder. I shoulder that the CDC has put the research ten years behind. Because the CDC has not been transparent, we’ve missed ten years of research because the CDC is so paralyzed right now by anything related to autism. They’re not doing what they should be doing because they’re afraid to look for things that might be associated. So anyway, there’s still a lot of shame with that. So when I talk to a person like you who has to live with this day in and day out, I say well, so I have to deal with a few months of hell if all this becomes public, um, no big deal. I’m not having to deal with a child who is suffering day in and day out. So that’s the way I view all this. I’m completely ashamed of what I did. So that’s that.”

          • john tucci

            So ONE study was a fraud and you make a song and dance about it, What about the thousands of other studies that are not frauds. You also make a song and dance if ONE child dies from vaccination but do not care if hundreds die from vaccine preventable diseases. Boy you are a sick lot.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            That one study Judith cites was not fraudulent. She is believing lies.

          • john tucci

            Thanks for the heads up.

          • Judith

            Post me your best study John – happy to look at it. Show me a study that is double blind placebo controlled. Show me a government vaccinated unvaccinated study.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Post me your best study John. Show me a study that is double blind placebo controlled.”

            You’ve been down this route multiple times before, Judith… don’t you ever get tired of moving goalposts all over the universe?
            Hat tip to Kathy…

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/36e916a89098be3e728d4cb849baafc3cc31b116e391f889bb4bc34c403ff5ab.jpg

          • Judith

            Of course we have and you and your cohorts have never been able to post such a study – not even one. Instead you post a stupid meme which means nothing and says nothing – If you posted ONE study it would answer my question but you cannot.

          • Mike Stevens

            Which double blind placebo controlled study on vaccines would you like to discuss, Judith?
            The original Salk polio field trials? Or maybe something more recent, like rotavirus vaccines? Or maybe pneumococcal vaccine?

          • Judith

            How about pneumococcal vaccine – but happy to discuss other: Robert Kennedy

            “My opposition to new meningitis mandates for every New York State seventh and twelfth grader has nothing to do with autism and everything to do with arithmetic (“Meningitis shot to be rule for schools,” Oct. 28). Meningitis is a rare disease that affects only 390 people nationally last year. FDA and industry testing show the meningitis vaccine to be unusually low efficacy and high risk. The manufacturers’ inserts predict that 1% to 1.3% of inoculated children will suffer “serious adverse effects.” CDC’s Pink Book forecasts that 0.3% of these will die from the vaccine. Of the 400,000 New York school children inoculated annually, some 4,000 will become ill and nine will die in order to prevent around four people from contracting the disease. At between $84 and $117 per shot, and with the requirement for a two-shot series, the law is an $80 million annual windfall for vaccine manufacturers at taxpayer expense. This math makes sense only to the pharmaceutical companies and the Albany politicians who have taken their money.
            http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/nov-7-coed-classrooms-vaccines-sesame-street-article-1.2426184

          • Mike Stevens

            OK, let’s look at pneumococcal vaccine.
            Here is one such study:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19483514

            Now, can you please acknowledge that there have indeed been double-blinded studies comparing this vaccine to saline placebo, and that you were wrong claiming such studies have never been done, or don’t exist?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Here, @JudithH700:disqus, one with a link.

          • Proponent

            Robert F. Kennedy Jr.? Meningitis vaccine? Let’s do a quick fact-check on some stuff, Judith, ok?

            “FDA and industry testing show the meningitis vaccine to be unusually low efficacy and high risk.”

            Meningococcal Polysaccharide Vaccine: “Serogroups A and C have demonstrated estimated clinical efficacies of 85% or more among school-aged children and adults during outbreaks.

            Meningococcal Conjugate Vaccines: “From 63% to 88% of recipients of a full series of MenB vaccine develop a protective level of antibody against representative strains of serogroup B meningococcus.”

            … …

            “The manufacturers’ inserts predict that 1% to 1.3% of inoculated children will suffer “serious adverse effects.””

            Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is citing adverse events.

            Adverse Event: “is any untoward medical occurrence in a patient or clinical investigation subject administered a pharmaceutical product and which does not necessarily have a causal relationship with this treatment.”

            … …

            “The CDC’s Pink Book forecasts that 0.3% of these children will die from the vaccine.”

            Not a single death can be attributed to the vaccine.

            (Source: On The Fence About Vaccines | “Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Meningococcal Meningitis” )

            … …

            Yes, it’s important to do your research and not blindly accept the garbage that originates with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (as Judith did/does).

            Next?

          • schpadoinkle

            that many dying from measles would be terrible though.

          • JGC

            Just one? No problem: see “A Phase I Double Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Randomized Study of the Safety and Immunogenicity of an Adjuvanted HIV-1 Gag-Pol-Nef Fusion Protein and Adenovirus 35 Gag-RT-Int-Nef Vaccine in Healthy HIV-Uninfected African Adults”, PMID: 25961283

          • Judith

            No link provided and cannot access

          • JGC

            I provided both the title and the PMID #, and Surely you’re familiar with PubMed.

          • Mike Stevens

            No link provided and cannot access”

            Don’t be a snowflake, Judith. Have you forgotten everything you ever learned with your Google U diploma?
            Just put the PMID number into a search engine, and the study pops up for you to read.
            You can do that, I hope? Do you need help in reading the study too?

          • Proponent

            Judith: “No link provided and cannot access”

            Huh.

            No link provided.. and.. cannot access.

            Judith? Do you consistently provide links to your copypasta? And in the instance of a paper or some research.. have you always had full access to the text?

            … …

            To be clear here.. I am not expecting an answer from you. This is simply a bookmark to come back to when you inevitably plagiarize, without attribution.

            And, more so.. cite or reference a paper that you did not have full access to.

            See you then.. … which, given your horrible commenting history should be within a few days. Give or take.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Show me a study that is double blind placebo controlled.”

            I’ve just posted a pneumococcal study for you. I went even better than you asked, and made it saline placebo!
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19483514

            I accept your apology for wrongly claiming such studies do not exist.

          • Judith

            Your Philippine study does not state what the placebo is. Placebo can mean aluminium as it was in the Gardasil vaccine trials.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Your Philippine study does not state what the placebo is”

            You didn’t even bother to look at it, Judith. That’s par for the course I suppose…

            “Children 6 weeks to <6 months of age were randomly allocated to
            receive 3 doses of either an 11-valent PCV (11PCV, sanofi pasteur, Lyon,
            France) or a saline placebo.”

          • Brian

            You’ve been caught lying again.

          • Judith

            Lying – you have to be more specific Brian

          • Mike Stevens

            “Lying – you have to be more specific Brian”

            Just look at all your previous posts Judith, you’ll be lucky to find any where you don’t lie.

            Example, as above:

            Earlier Judith: “there are no placebo controlled double-blind studies on vaccines”
            Mike/Brian/everyone else: “Yes there are. Here are some links.”
            Current Judith: No response.
            Future Judith: “there are no placebo controlled double-blind studies on vaccines”

          • Brian

            One of your lies- when you said there were no placebo-controlled studies of vaccines.

            I’ll accept your apology for lying now.

          • Judith

            If the placebo is aluminium which it was in Gardasil trials – it isn’t a proper placebo. Show me a study of the current schedule that used 100% saline.

          • Brian

            You originally claimed that there weren’t any saline placebos. There obviouly were.

            And you changing your story to complain that they didn’t use only saline placebos?

          • Judith

            Yes the corruption is rife:
            Cochrane recently put out a report in which it accuses the European Medicines Agency (EMA)of serious medical misconduct regarding the study design of the HPV vaccine, the refusal to look into the serious side effects and the conflict of interests of its members.

            In all the vaccine trials apart from a small one, the “placebo” contained aluminium adjuvant, which is suspected of being neurotoxic. It is therefore difficult to find a difference between harms of the vaccine and the “placebo,” but the EMA failed to address this fundamental problem in its official report (2). It is clear from the EMA’s internal report (4) that the MAHs simply lumped the results from trials with a genuine placebo with those that had a potentially neurotoxic “placebo”:

          • Brian

            Thanks for admitting you were lying when you said none of the studies ever included saline placebos.

            Of course, scientists aren’t stupid, and they know that saline placebos aren’t generally the smart choice for testing the safety of vaccines.

          • Mike Stevens

            And that complaint/report was comprehensively rejected, Judith.
            https://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/other/ema-response-nordic-cochrane-letter-ema-response-nordic-cochrane-letter-human-papillomavirus-hpv_en.pdf

            PS: The complaint did not come from Cochrane, and not even Nordic Cochrane (since those writing the report were expressing personal views and misappropriating Cochrane bannner to submit their personal complaints).
            Since then, the author of the report/complaint has been relieved of his place on the central Cochrane committee for breaching Cochrane regulations, and removed from Nordic Cochrane.

          • AutismDadd

            Just this week it was announced the greed merchants are targeting women up to age 45 for these vaccines.

          • Brian

            Still lying, I see. Are you ever going to apologize?

            https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT01047345

          • Judith

            I think Cochrane is far more qualified than you Brian.

            None of the vaccine trials was truly placebo controlled. In one trial, 597 children received a so-called placebo (Gardasil trial V501-018, NCT00092547) that – apart from aluminium – included all the adjuvants, some of which are highly immunogenic. In another trial (Gardasil 9 trial V503-006, NCT01047345), 306 participants received a saline placebo but all of them had previously been vaccinated with quadrivalent Gardasil before entering the study, so those who did not tolerate the vaccine were likely not randomised.

            The two doctors external to EMA’s committees explained in EMA’s 254-page internal report how absurd all this is (page 173 in the pdf, or 61/67 in the subdocument):

            “Initially, the vaccine was compared with a placebo group being vaccinated with physiological serum, whereby the number of adverse reactions was much higher and much more serious than in the control group. After comparing 320 patients in the saline placebo group a quick move was made to an aluminium-containing placebo, in order to be able to only evaluate the effects of the active substance. However, this distorted the comparison … the difference between the vaccine and the saline placebo is concealed in all publications, as the table below clearly shows. For serious adverse reactions one suddenly takes the saline and aluminium group together, perhaps to cover up the major differences between these two groups.”

            We believe it constitutes scientific misconduct to lump “placebo” groups that are not placebo groups and then claim that there is no safety signal. EMA not only accepted this but also defended it, without reservations. ”

            http://nordic(dot)cochrane(dot)org/sites/nordic(dot)cochrane(dot)org/files/public/uploads/-_our_letter_to_the_ombudsman_13_july_2017.pdf

          • Proponent

            Geez.. you are about as repentant as Andy Wakefield, the Geiers, Sears, Wolfe, and and … about lying, Judith.

            Which, is to say.. not at all.

          • Judith

            You and Brian have very small vocabularies – no argument but you know how to say the word lying as if that gives you any cred at all. You really are failing at your job,

          • Proponent

            Poor loser – you have to resort to character assassination instead of addressing the issue of blatant lying.

          • JoeFarmer

            It’s really simple. People call you a liar because you are a liar.

          • Mike Stevens

            You keep lying that there are no vaccine studies using saline placebo, despite having been shown several.
            That is lying.
            You, and all antivaxers, lie all the time. The only one who has ever acknowledged an error has been David Foster. The rest of you lie, lie and lie again, and never admit you are wrong.

            Why do antivaxers have to lie? Is it because the truth is so harmful to your cause, because it shows you have no valid arguments?

          • Judith

            You are yet to send me an accessible link that states that the placebos used were saline…placebo could mean anything in these days of smoke and mirrors when it comes to vaccine trials.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ve sent you numerous links, Judith. They specify saline placebo was used.

            Here are a couple again…
            Polio vaccine:
            http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/epidemiology/hanley/c622/salk_trial.pdf
            Pneumococcal vaccine:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19483514

            Now can you please STOP LYING?

          • Proponent

            No doubt, you will have to post this again in a very short while, Mike, as Judith cycles through her various scripts.

            But.. it’s important.

            And.. I appreciate your time and efforts.

            … …

            Side bar: I have to remind myself that I do support free speech, and this stuff from the anti-vaxxers is definitely the stinky, short end of the stick to those of us that stand in support of vaccinations.

          • JoeFarmer

            More pathological lying from Judith the sociopath.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            I wrote a whole blog post about saline placebos in studies, all based on some comments between you and Mike. There are links in it. Check it out!

            https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2018/08/06/there-are-no-vaccine-studies-with-saline-placebo/

          • White_and_Nerdy

            Gosh Judith…you are literally arguing that “saline” doesn’t mean “saline”.

            Yes the anti-vacc fraud is exactly that stupid.

            BTW#1: I did the experiment. Took an 8 year-old about 2 seconds on Google to find lots and lots of vaccine studies that used Saline placebos…..but you know that already you are just caught lying again….

            BTW #2: the proper use of placebo controls is still middle-school science…and they are still used correctly in vaccine trials….but you know that already…you are just caught lying again…

            Anyway….I am grateful for your many posting here where you continue to prove not just that the anti-vaccs are a fraud….and lie about pretty much everything….but also that one has to be infinitely stupid to honestly believe them!

            W&N

          • White_and_Nerdy

            As usual….when pointed out that your postings are at best totally nonsense….predicated on being unable to read correctly….you leave.

            And we all know that in a short time you will go somewhere else and knowingly post the same old falsehoods…

            W&N

          • Brian

            You should feel unique Judith. I don’t use the word “lying” all that often, except around you, for obvious reasons.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            I think the NC has tainted itself. They recently had a massive roll over of staff. Maybe time to pay attention to the rest of the world?

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, I agree with you, Cochrane is great, especially now they have got shot of Gotzsche.

          • JoeFarmer

            “If the placebo is aluminium which it was in Gardasil trials – it isn’t a proper placebo.”

            You are not qualified to make that determination.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Show me a study of the current schedule that used 100% saline.”

            I presume you mean a vaccine on the schedule that was trialed using saline placebo?
            Sure… how about the original Salk polio vaccine?
            http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/epidemiology/hanley/c622/salk_trial.pdf

          • Mike Stevens

            The study I cited used saline placebo.
            Stop pretending it didn’t, Judith.

            To keep on saying so is indeed LYING.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19483514

            “We conducted a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial in Bohol, the Philippines (ISRCTN 62323832). Children 6 weeks to <6 months of age were randomly allocated to receive 3 doses of either an 11-valent PCV (11PCV, sanofi pasteur, Lyon, France) or a saline placebo, with a minimum interval of 4 weeks between doses to determine vaccine efficacy (VE) against the primary outcome of a child experiencing first episode of community-acquired radiologically defined pneumonia in the first 2 years of life”

          • Proponent

            Judith: “Post me your best study John – happy to look at it.”

            And, yet..

            Brian: “Why don’t you look at the study? Where does the “10 times more likely to die” come from?

            After you find it, could you please tell the class what the confidence intervals were.”

            Judith: “Do your own homework thanks Brian – I have more important things to do..”

          • john tucci

            Thing is Prop, when evidence is given to her, she won’t even look at it, also it’s always the same questions which have been answered numerous times.

          • Proponent

            Oh, I get that, John.

            It’s just one of the infuriating things about how Judith and her anti-vax colleagues conduct themselves … repeating lies ad nauseam. Despite being spoonfed information to the contrary, over.. and over … and over again.

          • john tucci

            These questions have been answered to you many many times by Mike Stevens and FallsAngel, gee I can even remember her answering those questions when she was posting as Sonje Hengie and that was a long time. Why do you persist in asking the same questions when they have been answered to you on numerous occasions?

          • AutismDadd

            So who were you before this recent sock puppet account?

          • john tucci

            That is none of your business and has no relevance , at least I use one account at a time not like moosey who I believe is one of your “gang”

          • AutismDadd

            OK Mr Puppet.

          • Judith

            Good attempt at deflection

          • AutismDadd

            Just reading your kick-ass responses. These clowns don’t stand a chance.

          • AutismDadd

            Thousands of other studies? Lets see you back that claim.

          • john tucci
          • AutismDadd

            Yes its very comical, so I did like reading it. Have any other appeals to authority who’s conclusion is science CURRENTLY does not SUPPORT the connection. See how the language used is NOT concrete? It DOES NOT claim or prove no connection. Its horse radish

          • tomonthebay

            Once again showing your lack of understanding of the meaning of appeal to authority and your inability to grasp the most basic scientific concepts.

          • AutismDadd

            Sure tom, as usual I don’t care what you think.

          • tomonthebay

            Of course you claim you don’t. It is painful to constantly be shown to be as willfully ignorant as you are.

          • AutismDadd

            Water off a duck’s back Mr Foolery

          • tomonthebay

            If true, you are incredibly lacking in self-awareness, but that has been firmly established previously as well.

          • AutismDadd

            tom you are drowning in your own fluids. My self-awareness is quite high and quite accurate. If I were you, I’d examine tom and his self-awareness first.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            That study was not fraudulent. No data was omitted. The idea that there is a higher rate of autism in AA males came from Brian Hooker’s study which was retracted for shoddy methodology. Many studies of autism by race have been done and not one shows more autism in AA males. You are still beating a long ago flogged flat dead horse.

          • Judith

            It is fraud when the purpose of the paper is to determine whether the timing of receipt of a biological product is associated with a disorder, and you find evidence of a very significant association but decide not only to not release that information, but to re-design the study so as to make the effect go away.

          • Mike Stevens

            Well, since none of that happened, there wasn’t a fraud, was there?
            In fact the only fraudulent MMR studies I can think of just now are Hooker’s (retracted) and Wakefield’s (retracted).

            If a study is proven to be fraudulent, it will be retracted from the journal which published it. Can you think of any others that fit the bill?

          • shay simmons

            (sotto voce) “Mawson, Exley, Shaw…”

          • Proponent

            Yes, it’s a fraud that sabelmouse; aka shpadoinkle upvoted your post/comment here with both of her (sock puppet) accounts.

            It’s like.. anti-vaxxers have to create multiple accounts to create the impression that there is actually some support for their bat guano ideas, and beliefs … and lies.

          • Judith

            Poor loser – you have to resort to character assassination instead of addressing the issue of blatant fraud.

          • Mike Stevens

            Since when is pointing out that an individual is using sockpuppet accounts to falsely convey the impression there are several antivaccine upvoters a “character assassination”, Judith?

            As to the notion that the MMR-autism study was a “blatant fraud”, can you explain why the authors have not been stripped of their medical license for fraud, or why the paper has not been retracted?
            That’s what usually happens to fraudulent papers.
            If you think there is fraud, I am sure the publishers of the study would welcome your contacting them with the evidence, after which they would certainly act decisively to retract the study.
            ….So what’s stopping you?

          • JoeFarmer

            Judith displays typical anti-vaxxer persecution complex.

          • Proponent

            Hey, Judith!

            I just invented a new word!

            Plagiarism!

          • JoeFarmer

            Prove that fraud occurred, sociopath.

          • AutismDadd

            You are a tard

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            There is no fraud. There is no higher incidence of autism in African American boys.

          • Judith

            Never been proven that the study was not fraudulent – if it was then the makers of VAXXED would be sued. William Thompson has a lawyer gag and cannot speak. We are waiting for him to address his claim.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Never has it been proven that the study was not fraudulent [and therefore it must be fraudulent]”

            This is just another example of your topsy-turvy antivax “logic”, Judith.
            You should know about how it is impossible to prove a negative, but then using that to assert that this means it must be positive takes your irrationality to new heights.

            How about someone says this:
            “Never has it been proven that Judith is not a psychopathic serial killer, therefore she must be one.”
            Does that make good sense to you? (Obviously it does)

          • Brian

            You are hilarious Judith!

            Your first say the study was blatantly fraudulent (and have repeated this dozens of times) and when asked for proof, your only evidence is “it hasn’t been proven otherwise”.

            Such flawless logic! /s

            Of course, the target audience for the “Vaxxed” hoax was never smart or rational people, which is probably why it was premiered to holocaust deniers and alien abductees aboard the “conspira-sea” cruise.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            You are full of BS. Vaxxed is based on Hooker’s study, which was retracted and proven false.

          • shay simmons

            Well…not so much false as full of errors of methodology, logical fallacies, and conflicts of interest.

            Kind of like what Judith believes is wrong with all research showing the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            False because there are many studies of autism by race and not one indicated African American boys have a higher rate of autism.

          • shay simmons

            He backed himself into a corner with that one – fortunately his sycophants are willing to overlook it.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Word has it that Hooker is writing a book about why his retracted study is not wrong. (massive eyeroll)

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            You got any evidence for William Thompson in particular having a lawyer gag?

          • JoeFarmer

            “Never been proven that the study was not fraudulent…”

            What a great demonstration that you have absolutely no idea what logic is and that you have absolutely no scientific background. Face it, Judith, you’re nothing more than a lying sociopath.

          • AutismDadd

            You are a pathetic little boy Pharmer. And a major TROLL

          • shay simmons

            Never been proven that the study was not fraudulent

            FTFY.

          • FallsAngel

            Judith, Judith, Judith! You know if you’ve read the letter that you’re cherry-picking. Here’s what else Thompson said.

            “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious
            diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly
            outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”

          • Proponent

            Hey, Judith!

            sabelmouse upvoted your post/comment here!

            Guess who else upvoted it?

            shpadoinkle; aka sabelmouse! One in the same person!

            That’s ok to do, right?

          • Proponent

            Judith?

            Pro tip for your anti-vax colleagues and Followers:

            Judith: If you are using one of your sock puppet accounts.. don’t follow me with one of your others. Makes us both look complicit in the deception.

            … …

            Oh, dear.. just noticed another; 655321; aka Follower of; 65532.

            “Cept, he/she/it chose to follow their own self.

            … …

            Oh, and.. another.. and another.. and another..

          • john tucci

            Does it ever end?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Right, Judith, so that would mean that other countries are ten years ahead of the CDC in research. Why doesn’t the NHS think vaccines cause autism?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Yes, it’s a discussion forum. That doesn’t mean we chuck basic logic out of the window.

            As for it not being a court of law, yeah, I doubt anyone’s expecting beyond reasonable doubt. Just some links or PMIDs will do.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            The studies are not fraudulent. And no, vaccines are not doing a vast amount of harm. Nearly everything you people call a “vaccine injury” is, in fact, not a vaccine injury. With a low burden of proof, the vaccine court has compensated 6000 cases in 30 years, during which time USA has given out 5+ billion vaccines. That’s a vaccine injury risk of 0.0000011%. Measles has a 30% risk of injury. Risk analysis. Give it a try.

          • Mike Stewart

            Vaccine injuries have been vastly underreported. You should know that that is about to change.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            No, that is not true and nothing is going to change. You really need to stop paying attention to Del and the other lying liars.

          • Judith

            You would have us not listen to the people who are speaking the truth – they are not being paid by Big Pharma – they have seen the injuries. When the VAXXED bus was on the road they collected thousands of stories of severe vaccine injuries not reported.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            This big pharma myth of yours is silly. You don’t think Robert Kennedy Jr makes a ton of money representing people who have claims against large corporations? You don’t think he tries hard, like any attorney, to skew the truth in favor of his clients? You don’t think Del Bigtree makes a lot of money from his radio show? Andrew Wakefield owns a home in Austen worth well over $1 million and he owns property worth at least that much. That comes from all the donations to Vaxxed. The guy who made the Truth about Cancer/Vaccines videos makes tons of money. All those antivax cult leaders linking you to the video sales are affiliates, making a commission off the sales. All the people selling bullshit “cures” for autism and other “vaccine injuries” are making money. Mercola makes a small fortune selling his BS.

            I could go on and on. You are the ones being had by shysters, not us provaxers.

            I checked out some of the Vaxxed bus stories and found them all completely not vaccine injuries. Krabbe Disease, autism, allergies, SIDS, you name it – not vaccine injuries. Stop believing BS, Judith.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            What were all the autistic girls doing on the Vaxxed bus, Judith?

          • Mike Stevens

            Judith, when lots of people decide that vaccines have mysteriously been responsible for their diabetes, obesity, epilepsy, lack of sex appeal, baldness and body odour, then yes, you do find a lot of reports of “vaccine damage”.

          • Proponent

            Judith: “You would have us not listen to the people who are speaking the truth – they are not being paid by Big Pharma.. .”

            … …

            Tell the class, Judith.. how much money QUAxxED took in at the box office?

            And then.. DVDs, t-shirts, mugs, posters, stickers and whatever other crap they put their name on..

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            How do you know that vaccine injuries have been vastly underreported?

          • Mike Stevens

            Mild vaccine injuries are under-reported.
            I haven’t reported any of the sore arms my family have got following shots. None. And they’ve had a lot of sore arms, believe me.

            Serious events after vaccination are generally well reported. For instance one study of VAERS showed that serious conditions like seizures and paralysis were around 50% reported. There is also fuller reporting from active monitoring, such as VSD and PRISMA.

          • shay simmons

            My right arm was certainly aching last week after my annual flu shot but why would I report it? The RN warned me about it, and it was mentioned on the vaccine information sheet she gave me.

          • Mike Stevens

            Interestingly, apart from my recent flu shot, I also had to get a smallpox vaccination. This was the new non-replicative vaccine (not the old “scarify your arm with variolation”) and was a doddle going in (it’s SC). But days 3-6 I had quite a sore arm and a slight lump.

            Whenever I get vaccines, my son likes to punch my arm, making it more sore.

            Shall I report him to VAERS?

          • shay simmons

            Nah, just smack ‘im.

          • shay simmons

            My cat can give your son lessons. Last night she curled up next to me and started doing what my German friend Gaby calls the Milchtanz against my arm, right on the injection site.

            With claws fully extended.

          • Mike Stevens

            Catupuncture.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Show us the evidence that the studies are a fraud and that Kathy knows that.

        • Judith

          Simple – we are to mandated to eat shell fish. Here in Australia we are being financially penalised for not vaccinating and children are refused schooling

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            If you were allergic to something in a vaccine, you would survive the first allergic reaction and then get a medical exemption. So, stop your whining.

        • Ron Roy

          No one is forced to eat shellfish and the fishing industry does not try and convince people that eating shellfish will prevent every disease known to mankind.People for the most part believe doctors ( well they used to anyway ) when they tell them vaccines are beneficial and doctors probably belive what the drug industry has told them. If an automobile manufacturer make a defective part in one of their vehicles and it leads to an a serious accident those injured have every right to sue the manufacturer. The same should apply to any pharmaceutical. Oh wait it does EXCEPT for vaccines.Gee why is that? Oh vaccines caused so many injuries that vaccine manufacturers had stopped making them.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            If you were allergic to something in a vaccine, you would survive the first allergic reaction and then get a medical exemption. So, stop your whining. It is lame.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Whilst the general adverse
            reactions including allergic reactions caused by the vaccine itself or
            the vaccine components, are rare, they can in some circumstances be
            serious and even fatal. In accordance with many IgE-mediated reactions
            and immediate-type allergic reactions, the primary allergens are
            proteins.” Source: PMC

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            You mean this article The one that is provax but says that patients who have had a suspected allergic reaction should see an allergist?

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3890451/

          • Ron Roy

            How can A baby who is still breastfed or bottle fed have had a suspected allergic reaction? The reaction to any component of their first vaccine would not have occurred before because they,(babies) had not been previously exposed to it. When the baby is dead, because of a vaccine, I think it would be a little too late to bring it to an allergist. And if there was an auto immune reaction sure an allergist could possibly point out which ingredient cause the problem. Then again unless he was an expert in toxicology he probably couldn’t figure out which combination of ingredients cause the problem. And how many allergies are cause by vaccines? Only the simple minded would believe that the body will react only to the virus in any vaccine and not the other foreign proteins or other ingredients.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            You have no clue how allergic reactions happen. The first time you experience an allergy, you don’t go immediately into anaphylaxis. You get hives or some such and then you get a referral to the allergist for testing. It is only if you take that allergen again that the reaction gets worse and can lead to throat swelling. But, SIDS is not an allergic reaction. Babies don’t die from an allergic reaction. If they did, the cause of death would be throat swelling from an allergic reaction.

            Do you ever stop to think?

            And how many allergies are cause by vaccines? ZERO

            If you are ALREADY allergic to something and you get a vaccine with that ingredient, you will have a minor reaction first. You will seek care and get tested. This is not rocket science. Figure out how to use your brain. You are annoying me today.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Plus, you know, if you’re allergic to something in a vaccine, you’ll have the reaction when you’re ALREADY IN A DOCTOR’S OFFICE. Kind of a good place for it.

          • Ron Roy

            No this article:

            ”Whilst the general adverse reactions including allergic reactions caused
            by the vaccine itself or the vaccine components, are rare, they can in
            some circumstances be serious and even fatal.” Now bear in mind this come from pro vaccine advocates who get their figures from the CDC, FDA and other pro vaccine agencies who admit that less than 10% of all drug and vaccine injuries are ever reported. So that statement: ”allergic reactions caused
            by the vaccine itself or the vaccine components, are rare, they can in
            some circumstances be serious and even fatal” are based on a 10% reporting rate.

          • AutismDadd

            And what parent doesn’t want to inject their child with something potentially fatal?

          • Acleron

            Lying again Ron.

          • JoeFarmer

            When does he not lie?

          • Acleron

            When he doesn’t comment?

          • tomonthebay

            I think he is so dumb he believes that serious reactions are only reported at the rate of 10%. He really is dumber than a box of rocks.

          • Acleron

            A belief contrary to known fact is classed as a delusion.

          • Acleron

            Your source is PMC3890451.

            It also says

            It has been reported that the average rate for immediate type reactions in children and adolescents is 0.22 per 100,000 doses of vaccinations

          • Ron Roy

            ”Mothers, from their genetic makeup to the food they eat, can have a

            profound effect on the development of the child growing inside them.
            Consider it part and parcel of sharing the same body for nine months.
            But when it comes to a baby’s health, it is not only these tangible
            variables that matter. Now a collection of new research further explores
            the roots of asthma and allergies, tracing them back to the womb” Source:

            By RADHA CHITALE
            ABC MEDICAL UNIT Now I want your co-workers to rescind their upvotes LOL

          • JoeFarmer

            So you dredge up a 10 year old news story that doesn’t even mention vaccines as your retort to Kathy?

            Your stupidity is really epic, Ron! No wonder you’re called The Little Engine Who Couldn’t.

          • Ron Roy

            You mean human biology has evolved so much in ten years as to make that news story null and void? I believe you and the three idiots who upvoted you are the idiots.

          • JoeFarmer

            Your stupidity is epic, Ron!

          • Proponent

            Great article, Ronald P. Roy! Thanks for sharing it!

            Of note; “The genetics are really an important part of asthma,” said Dr. Devang Doshi, director of Pediatric Allergy, Immunology, and Pulmonology at William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Mich., adding that identifying it in children is key. “Research is really shifting in that direction.”

            And..

            “According to Doshi, it will also be key to continue these studies on the children as they grow older. Patterns of asthma or allergies in babies or young children are different than in older children. Continuing this research over time could help researchers understand how severe or lasting the prenatal effects are, could be the first step in developing effective preventive strategies, or even vaccines, for asthma and allergic diseases.”

          • Ron Roy

            Yes it is a great article but what you posted concerning that article doesn’t diminish the fact that allergies start in the womb and there’s no way of knowing if a baby will have a severe reaction to any of the components of a vaccine leading to an anaphalactic shock. Plus to quote what you just posted: ”Continuing this research over time could help researchers understand how severe or lasting the prenatal effects are ,” Lack of this knowledge is admitting they’re playing Russian Roulette with baby’s lives.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            You are quoting an ABC news article from 2008 that does not refute my point at all. I think this might be over your head.

          • Ron Roy

            It refutes your point 100% And if as you seem to believe it doesn’t then explain to me in great detail how it doesn’t. Your EXTREME bias is very apparent.

          • schpadoinkle

            oh, the c/kathies!

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            no it does not. Good lord. Learn how to science

          • Ron Roy

            Yes it does. If you believe otherwise prove that what I posted was wrong. Citations please.

          • Ron Roy

            Prove me and that article wrong. Unless I’m mistaken human biology has not changed in the last ten years. Your allegiance to the drug industry is despicable.

          • schpadoinkle

            if you’re lucky.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          But they do, anyway. Since that’s what the NVICP is for.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

        The Pharma industry already has to pay for all the children and adults that have been harmed by vaccines; that is exactly what the NVICP’s entire purpose is.

      • Mike Stevens

        “The proper remedy is to force the pharmaceutical industry to pay for the
        care of all of the children and adults that have been harmed by
        vaccines”

        In the USA this already happens. Successful claims for vaccine damage are compensated through NVICP, which is wholly funded by a $0.75 excise tax levied off the pharmaceutical manufacturers for each vaccine component that is sold.

      • JGC

        What harm are you speaking of, and what evidence demonstrates the harm you believe vaccines caused actually was caused by vaccines?

        Be specific.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      Could you explain Gadad et al please? Or countries with public health systems?

  • Mike Stewart

    Do the pharmaceutical shills still claim “herd immunity” is needed? Do they still claim we have ever had herd immunity? Do they still claim vaccines caused the major reductions in the incidence of disease? Do they claim the aluminum in vaccines is not harmful? These are all lies of course.

    • john tucci

      Correct me if I am wrong. Do you want to do away with vaccination? If so why? Would you like to go back to pre vaccination days where many thousands died from vaccine preventable diseases and millions remained injured for the rest of their lives?

      • Mike Stewart

        I would like to reverse the direction the industry has taken and bring accountability to address fraud and corruption. I would like to see people that have engaged in the fraud pay for their crimes. I would like to see the pharmaceutical industry pay for the harm they have caused countless humans (and animals for that matter). Perhaps your understanding of history is flawed because vaccines did not eradicate disease. A vaccine may be useful, but in this age of fraudulent studies it is clear people are not getting the information they need to make an educated decision whether or not to vaccinate. Certainly, they should never be mandated by, essentially, the manufacturer since the politicians wanting to do so are effectively on their payroll.

        • john tucci

          Simple question, how did Smallpox disappear?

          • Mike Stewart

            There are likely resources you can find. If you need help, let me know.

          • john tucci

            You just don’t get it. I don’t have to prove your claims, YOU made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. I want you to tell me how Smallpox disappeared from the planet seeing as you claim that vaccination is not much good.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            You made the claim. Your responsibility to provide evidence for it.

            https://thelogicofscience.com/2016/09/27/dont-tell-people-to-google-it-thats-your-job-not-theirs/

          • Mike Stevens

            OK, I’ll bite… can you provide me with the “help” you offer?
            I’d like to see some official relevant sources of valid information on this, such as WHO, National health agencies or other global bodies.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Smallpox disappeared due to a combination of quarantine and immunization

          • john tucci

            Yes but I asked Mike Stewart that question to see what he would come up with.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            I meant to reply to him. Sorry.

          • john tucci

            No problemo, I have been guilty of doing the same.

          • Judith

            Smallpox can be dealt with by quarantine.
            The report of Dr. William Farr, (1807 “” 1883), Compiler of Statistics of the Registrar General of London and considered to be the first developer of vital statistics, stated: “Smallpox attained its maximum mortality after vaccination was introduced. The mean annual mortality for 10,000 population from 1850 to 1869 was at the rate of 2.04, whereas after compulsory vaccination, in 1871 the death rate was 10.24. In 1872 the death rate was 8.33 and this after the most laudable efforts to extend vaccination by legislative enactments.” 30

            The compulsory vaccination law was repealed in 1907. By 1919, England and Wales had become one of the least vaccinated countries and had only 28 deaths from smallpox out of a population of 37.8 million people.31 According to official figures of the Registrar General of England, 109 children under five years in England and Wales died of smallpox between 1910 and 1933. In that same period 270 died from vaccination.32 Between 1934 and 1961 not one smallpox death was recorded but 115 children under five years died from smallpox vaccination. 33

            Creighton, C. Jenner and Vaccination: a Strange Chapter of Medical History. Swan Sonnerschein & Co. 1889. Reprinted by General Books, 2009.

          • Proponent

            Judith, I’ve offered you the keys to my time machine before.. seriously, think about it and come join us in the present.

            … …

            Oh, and..

            Judith: “Smallpox can be dealt with by quarantine.”

            You forgot Vitamin C! Judith!

            Vitamin C! Cures, prevents.. every -thing!

          • shay simmons

            “Bring out your dead!”

          • Mike Stevens

            Vaccination (universal and ring-fenced), and quarantine.
            Neither alone would have been successful.

          • john tucci

            True Mike, but do you think Mike Stewart would agree? methinks not.

          • Mike Stevens

            No he wouldn’t.
            I’m waiting for him to explain why not. (I asked for his “help” like he suggested….)
            😉

        • Mike Stevens

          ” Perhaps your understanding of history is flawed because vaccines did not eradicate disease.”

          I don’t see that John made that claim.
          You are “strawmanning” again, a common antivaccine fallacy.

          Vaccines have dramatically reduced the disease burden, that’s what he said. In fact, only 2 diseases have so far been completely eradicated by vaccination, smallpox and rinderpest.
          It is quite possible that polio will follow them into the history books, and it’s even feasible to think eradication of measles would be possible, since there is no animal reservoir (unfortunately antivaccine activists have been working hard to ensure that outcome will not take place).

          • Mike Stewart

            Speaking of measles, something you seem to think you understand. Are you a biologist?
            https://healthimpactnews.com/2017/german-federal-supreme-court-upholds-biologists-claim-that-measles-virus-does-not-exist/

          • Brian

            There’s no faster way to prove your ignorance than citing nonsense conspiracy blogs like “healthimpactnews”.

            Are you also a flat earther?

          • Mike Stewart

            Yes, unless a source is vetted by the pharmaceutical industry it is nonsense, right? Look up “sheeple”.

          • Brian

            Look at you try to deflect from getting caught promoting conspiracy blogs!

            It’s amusing.

            Do you deny the holocaust happened too?

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m a clinician. When I did tropical pediatrics, our Paeds ward admitted roughly 10-12 measles cases per week. Deaths from measles ran at 1-2 per week, usually secondary pneumonia or measles LTB, occasionally encephalitis, and often malnutrition as the measles sequelae were often severe enteritis on top of poor nutritional base, and kids were tipped into kwashiorkor usually, but sometimes into marasmus.
            Yes, I understand measles, all too well.
            Healthimpactnews is a quack propaganda site, and is quite unreliable.
            I’m not even going to give them the benefit of a click.

          • ciaparker2

            Which was in Malawi, Africa, where there are many malnourished children and many children with chronic infections: HIV, malaria, TB,…We have always said that in some areas of Africa, measles fatality runs at 10%. But that is not the case for developed countries, and not even the case for India.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            No and I’m not a chemist either. Even I know that table salt doesn’t explode when you add it to your soup.

        • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com Reality022

          Mike Stewart said, “I would like to see people that have engaged in the fraud pay for their crimes.”
          .
          So would I.
          I think a great starting point would be Andrew Wakefield who merely lost his job/career when he should be in prison for physically abusing disabled children and perpetrating one of the most egregious science frauds of the last century.
          .
          Then we can move on to Brian Hooker, Dr. Bob, the dynamic losers Shaw & Tomljenovic, the purveyors of bleach enemas for disabled children, etc., etc., etc.

          • shay simmons

            I’m with you on that last one. Anyone who promotes or administers a bleach enema to a child should spend eternity scrubbing the men’s toilets at Grand Central Station with their own toothbrush.

            Just for starters. I’ll have to think up something more permanent involving boiling oil.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            How about we give them bleach enemas -I mean, if it’s so great and all.

      • Judith

        John I invite you to look at these graphs – you will see that most childhood illnesses were down approximately 90% before vaccines were introduced, mainly because of better hygiene, cleaner water, better nutrition.
        https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

        • john tucci

          I looked at your graph, did you? I notice a sharp drop in cases at about the time the measles vaccination was introduced, so vaccination works, oh by the way Judith, measles does not care about clean water and sanitation.

        • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

          We’ve seen those graphs 14 million times. They are mortality, or death, graphs, but they don’t show morbidity or incidence. You know the difference so I can only assume you are lying when you post these graphs. You are lying when you say illnesses were 90% gone before vaccines.

        • Chris Preston

          you will see that most childhood illnesses were down approximately 90% before vaccines were introduced

          That statement is completely wrong. The graphs you are linking to are for deaths from diseases, not incidence of childhood diseases.

          This is a very common anti-vaxxer lie, pretending deaths is the same as incidence of disease. Mike Stewart has done it here as well as Judith. They persist in it because otherwise, they don’t have any arguments against vaccination.

          This is measles incidence in the US before and after the vaccine was licensed. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures/00000454.gif

        • Mike Stevens

          “you will see that most childhood illnesses were down approximately 90% before vaccines were introduced”

          Another blatant lie, Judith.
          You’ve been corrected on this point multiple times.
          Why do antivaxers always lie?
          Is it because they are:
          1. Stupid?
          2. They can’t stop as they are pathological liars?
          3. If they told the truth people wouldn’t be conned into thinking vaccines are harmful? or
          4. All of the above?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            And I still answer this with:

            How long would an honest anti-vaxxer last?

        • shay simmons

          “mainly because of better hygiene, cleaner water, better nutrition.”

          In the late 1950’s my siblings and my friends and I (from ordinary middle class American families in ordinary middle class American neighborhoods) had indoor plumbing, clean water, and decent food (probably a better diet than today). You know what else we had?

          Measles. Your chart shows deaths, not number of cases.

        • JGC

          But those graphs don’t show that childhood illnesses were down before vaccines were introduced–they track mortality (deaths due to disease), not morbidity (incidence of disease).

          • Judith

            They show that deaths were becoming far less before vaccines – better nutrition, sanitation,cleaner water and the community were developing natural immunity. However introducing vaccines has just developed a whole new level of illness in the form of auto immune, neurological and ASD disease.

          • JGC

            Judith, it’s been explained to you dozens of times why morbidity—the incidence of deaths caused by infectious diseases—is not an apppropriate metric to use when assessing vaccine efficacy.

            The invention of the iron lung, after all, reduced the number of people dying as the result of polio each year. It didn’t do a thing to reduce the number of people being infected—or paralyzed—by the disease annually.

            Really, this is about as simple as it gets. Why can’t you seem to understand it no matter how often it’s explained to you?

          • schpadoinkle

            we could have had more health/less death, instead we have chronic illnesses/autism.

          • JGC

            No one argues that deaths were not declining. What were noting is that the diseases themselves did not decline until after the introduction of vaccination against them.

          • schpadoinkle

            yes, the important things!

    • Mike Stewart

      I haven’t had a vaccine in over 50 years when I got about 5. Most adults have not had anywhere near the vaccines they give children now, they are essentially unvaccinated. All of these diseases had been drastically curtailed before vaccines even came into existence. This is history. Thank sanitation, antibiotics, sterilization, access to nutrition. Vaccines are largely a scam.

      • Andrew Lazarus

        How much do you want to bet measles incidence was not drastically curtailed until vaccination?

        Sanitation and nutrition work against cholera and scurvy. (Nutrition even helps with measles outcomes, although not incidence.) But it isn’t one size fits all. In fact, polio appears to have become more common as sanitation improved.

        • Mike Stewart

          The “industry’ says polio was eradicated through vaccination. Are you disputing that?

          • Andrew Lazarus

            No, I am stating that in the 20th Century, up until vaccination, polio was more common in places with better sanitation and, unlike, say, cholera, was more prevalent in the middle class than the poor.

            I notice you show little interest in betting about measles incidence.

          • Mike Stewart

            https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/
            There is a graph in there for measles. As you can see, it was going down drastically before vaccines.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Those graphs are measles deaths, not measles incidence.

            Why don’t you come back after you learn the difference.

          • Mike Stewart

            Why don’t you just go away since I embarrassed you.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            “Why don’t you just go away since I embarrassed you.” You embarrassed yourself by posting data you did not understand.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            My original post (emphasis added) “How much do you want to bet measles incidence was not drastically curtailed until vaccination?”

            Your answer is about deaths. You can’t vaccinate against stupid.

          • Proponent

            I am embarrassed for you, Mike Stewart.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Death rate or mortality rate was going down but incidence or morbidity rate was highest in 1950s than any other time in 20th century. The reason there were fewer deaths was hospitals and medicine. But, people were still suffering greatly. Measles wipes out the immune memory for three years and has a 30% complications rate.

          • Mike Stewart

            Very good Kathy! You get an A!

          • Proponent

            Sadly, you get an F.

            🙁

          • Mike Stevens

            There’s no fixing stupid, obviously….

          • Proponent

            Uh.. you get your information from a website run by a lawyer trying to scam the gullible and deluded?

            … …

            Of course, you do.

          • JGC

            no, it wasn’t Deaths due to measles was going down as health care improved, such that more children who contracted a measles infection survived although often with lasting injuries like blindness, deafness, cognitive impairment etc. but the number of children infected with measles annually did not decrease dramatically until we began routine prophylactic vaccination programs against the disease.

            Would you argue that because the invention of the iron lung made deaths due to polio decrease significantly (although the survivors remained paralyzed for life) the polio vaccine was unnecessary?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Measles was going down drastically before vaccines”
            ???
            Are you able to read a chart? Did you leave your glasses at home, and your brain in a jar onn your bedside table?
            Tell us what the top line represents on the chart YOU cited, please.
            Then tell us what happened to the incidence (cases) and mortality (deaths) in 1963, when vaccine was introduced.
            Did they:
            1. Go up?
            2. Stay the same?
            3. Go down?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2bb0f7b7b0caff25bfc5b5e3097fee08b4d929ee7b25392ef6f3c9bb243a753d.jpg

          • Mike Stewart

            Polio was, and is, a result of exposure to environmental toxins like pesticides. Now you know.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Lurkers: I suggest you not take medical advice from someone who confuses incidence with mortality rate. He’s also going to post some random garbage about DDT, which can’t possible explain the sudden and drastic drop in polio incidence when the vaccine came out.

          • Mike Stewart

            Lurkers: Look up Acute Flaccid Paralysis, Acute Flaccid Myelitis, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, and when these diseases came onto the scene. (Hint: when “polio” was eradicated).

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            Those all have other causes. Plus, polio has not been declared eradicated. I think you are confusing what happened in the 1950s, when the causes for all those illnesses were identified and polio was differentiated from them. You would benefit from some polio history

            polioeradication.org

          • Andrew Lazarus

            GBS came onto the scene when a diagnostic test (which would differentiate it from polio) was developed in 1916. Anyway, how many cases of those do we have every year, and how does that compare to the total cases of polio plus AFP, AFM, and GBS from before the vaccine.

            Lurkers: Are parents sending their children into the country in the summer out of fear of GBS? Did the municipal pool close because of a rumor of a kid with non-polio AFP? No? Then they are nothing like polio. As part of their swollen heads and Dunning-Kruger issues, antivaxers think your grandparents and their doctors were morons who didn’t realize the value of kale against polio.

          • Proponent

            Lurkers: Look up anti-vaccine tropes and/or PRATTs.

          • Acleron

            When the first polio vaccine was being used, the scientific tools were finding many ‘new’ diseases. So as polio was eradicated it was either these or any other convenient disease that would be blamed by antivaxxers with absolutely no logic or evidence.

          • AutismDadd

            Says the logic illiterate

          • Acleron

            LMAO. You make a fool of yourself everytime you try to be clever. I’ve been telling you for a long time to use a dictionary but even that is beyond you.

          • AutismDadd

            Don’t care what you tell me. Its mostly lies.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            It can’t explain Ancient Egypt either , for that matter.

          • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

            oh good grief. Polio is a virus.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Polio was, and is, a result of exposure to environmental toxins like pesticides. Now you know.”

            …yup. Definitely no fixing stupid.

          • Acleron

            Polio existed long before modern pesticides, it is caused by a virus, so now you know.

          • FallsAngel

            No one has said polio has been eradicated.

        • Judith

          In over 95% polio presents as – slight fever, headache vomiting, malaise which start 3 – 5 days after exposure and recovery is 24 -72 hours with lifetime immunity.

          3% of cases present non paralytic polio which is 2 – 10 days of high fever, headache, stiff neck hyperesthesia/paresthesia in extremities and some asymmetrical limb weakness and can be diagnosed as meningitis not polio. The remaining paralytic cases can at a time when there was poor sanitation, poor Hygeine and nutrition.

          “In 1992, the Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the United States [36]. In fact, according to CDC figures, every case of polio in the U.S. since 1979 was caused by the oral polio vaccine [36]. Authorities claim the vaccine was responsible for about eight cases of polio every year [46]. However, an indepentent study that analyzed the government’s own vaccine database during a recent period of less than five years uncovered 13,641 reports of adverse events following use of the oral polio vaccine. These reports included 6,364 emergency room visits and 540 deaths (Figure 3) [47,48]. Public outrage at these tragedies became the impetus for removing the oral polio vaccine from immuniza- tion schedules [36:568;37;38]. ”

          The last natural case of polio in the US was 1979, yet we still give kids 4 rounds of this vaccine at 2, 4, 6-12 months, and 4-6 years. But the fear tactics continue of, “it can come back or you don’t know about the destruction it caused.”

          http://healthimpactnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Vac1.jpg

          • Chris Preston

            More complete nonsense.

            The frequency of those infected getting paralytic polio was 0.5%. However, about 80% go on to develop post polio syndrome.

            In contrast the percentage of those vaccinated with the IPV getting paralytic polio is 0%. The percentage getting post polio syndrome is also 0%.

            Even with the OPV the percentage of those vaccinated getting paralytic polio was 0.0003%. More than 1000 times safer than wild polio.

            While wild polio is no longer present in the US, it does occur elsewhere in the world, largely thanks to anti-vaxxers. You must really hate children, Judith, wanting them to catch polio.

            By the way, Health Impact News is not a reliable medical web site. It is known for publishing unadulterated pseudoscience and quackery.

          • FallsAngel

            You miss the point with your polio statistics. In 1952, when most people had adequate sanitation and nutrition, there were about 21,000 paralytic polio cases. So what if they only represented 1-2% of the polio cases that year? This at a time when the population of the US was less than half what it is now. If such an epidemic occurred now, there would be about 50,000 cases of paralytic polio. If there were a vaccine that caused that many side effects, well, there wouldn’t be because said vaccine would never have gotten out of the animal testing stage. Secondly, to blame all paralytic polio on poor nutrition is nonsense, and a deflection.

            You’re talking VAERS reports without saying the name. Sneaky, but what can you expect from someone whose avatar is a horse’s a**? As you know, VAERS reports do not show causation. So that paragraph is useless. I do not recall this “public outrage” you speak of, either, and I was working in public health at the time.

            An airplane ride away Judith. Who knows, maybe that airplane is heading to Australia as we speak!

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Polio, being highly contagious, had frequent mass epidemics. We had over 21,000 cases of actual paralysis from polio in 1952. The fact that many more people had polio and made a full recovery after a week of misery and fear is a poor argument against the vaccine. And hygiene and sanitation were not so different in 1952 than in 1960, by which time the vaccine had reduced incidence drastically.

            Judith is right in one thing. There was a longstanding argument over whether to use the safer killed-virus vaccine or the more effective live-virus vaccine. Once the live-virus vaccine had brought wild polio almost to zero—so that indeed there were more adverse reactions from the vaccine than polio cases—we switched.

            Lurkers: Antivax math is strange. Eight cases of polio is a disaster, while hundreds of thousands of cases of polio a generation earlier was no big deal, since it was really that your grandparents were too stupid to use toilet paper.

          • Judith

            The problem is the IPV does not prevent transmission of polio.

          • JGC

            It does, by preventing people exposed to polio from contracting the disease such that they could serve as vectors of infection.

            You do know how polio is spread, don’t you?

          • JoeFarmer

            And there’s another lie from Judith the pathological liar.

      • FallsAngel

        What diseases are “all of these”, Mike? Virtually all adults over 60 have had measles and mumps, and 85% (at least) have had rubella. People born in the US before 1980 (39+ years of age) have had chickenpox, save for a few outliers. Pre-vaccine, every child had a Hib and rotavirus infection by age 6. So adults are immune to these diseases.

        • Mike Stewart

          Yes, I had mumps, measles, chicken pox, and I am healthier with my natural immunity that the children getting 60 plus shots these days. I particularly like the hep b for babies… Also, I could find the study that showed that a woman getting the flu shot for two consecutive years drastically increase the chances of a miscarriage. Did you know that? You want me to find it for you? Let me know, I will fetch it.

          • JGC

            “Also, I could find the study that showed that a woman getting the flu shot for two consecutive years drastically increase the chances of a miscarriage. Did you know that? ”

            No, and I can’t know it until I can read and evaluate the evidence the study collected, can I?

            So yes: I want you to fetch a citation to the study for me.

          • FallsAngel

            Fetch Fido! (I think I’ve read it and it doesn’t say what you think.)

          • FallsAngel

            It’s not 60 plus shots, it’s 55 doses max. There are many combination shots. Most of you anti-vaxers are afraid of shots.

    • Brian

      If you’ve never had measles even though you never got vaccinated, then you are walking, talking evidence of herd immunity.

      Why are anti-vaxxers constantly lying?

      • Mike Stewart

        Herd immunity does not exist, see post above. As for the efficacy of vaccines, the point is that regardless whether they “worK” for a specific illness or disease, the damage far outweighs the benefits as you may soon learn if you actually read independent data not paid for by the pharmaceutical industry.

        • Brian

          Herd immunity is just as real as the moon landings, and is regularly measured. But if you refuse to accept reality, it’s your own problem.

          • Mike Stewart

            Oh, okay. Why do you bring up the moon landings? Are you going to bring up chemtrails next?

          • Brian

            If you’re gullible/ignorant enough believe herd immunity isn’t real, then I wouldn’t be surprised at all if you believed in other nonsensical conspiracies.

            After all, you even linked to a website that promotes chemtrails and the moon landings being faked.

    • Chris Preston

      What a lot of nonsense.

      Do they still claim we have ever had herd immunity?

      Herd immunity is real. If a sufficient proportion of individuals carry immunity to a disease, its transmission within the population can be stopped, thereby protecting those without immunity from catching it. The proportion of the population required to be immune before herd immunity is effective varies depending on the transmission characteristics of the disease. For measles it is 93-95%. Herd immunity was how measles virus was eliminated from the US in 2000. All the subsequent outbreaks of measles have been due to non-immune people bringing it in from overseas and the overwhelming majority of these have occurred in non-vaccinating communities.

      Do they still claim vaccines caused the major reductions in the incidence of disease?

      Vaccines for measles, mumps, diphtheria, smallpox, pertussis, poliomyelitis, Haemophilus influenzae type b and rubella have all greatly reduced the incidence of these diseases.

      Do they claim the aluminum in vaccines is not harmful?

      All the evidence suggests the aluminium adjuvants used in vaccines are safe. These are aluminium salts by the way, not aluminium.

      • Mike Stewart

        Your first point on “herd immunity” is false according to the CDC, a vaccine proponent YOU trust.
        https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/coverage/adultvaxview/pubs-resources/NHIS-2016.html
        In the article you should note the low vaccination rates of adults.
        Your second point on vaccines causing major reductions in incidence of disease is false because vaccines came onto the scene late in the natural progression of diseases being reduced in the populations by other factors. You folks use incidence instead of mortality because it suits your argument to exclude data that doesn’t fit your narrative.
        https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/
        Note the drastic reduction as we learned about how diseases are transmitted, how to effectively treat diseases, access to clean water, nutrition, hygiene, antibiotics, etc.
        The third point on aluminum.
        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763
        You will find that aluminum is present in the brains of autistic children (and Alzheimers patients) in much higher quantities than normal children. Where does it come from? The amount of aluminum in vaccines skyrocketed in the 90’s.
        http://www.jpands.org/vol21no4/miller.pdf
        The CDC gets their safety data on aluminum from a flawed study, the aluminum was not injected, and it calls into question the integrity of the CDC.
        https://vaccinepapers.org/the-foundation-for-al-adjuvant-safety-is-false/
        Further reading on aluminum if you are not convinced.
        https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/4/1/international2018
        Anyone that reads this material that does not have an agenda would be convinced.
        Have a good day.

        • Proponent

          Mike Stewart: “Anyone that reads this material that does not have an agenda would be convinced. Have a good day.”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/004761af50270e7cd266ff5198180d9a523cbdf164c7d855e022363e3b24965f.png

          • Mike Stewart

            Try to raise your level of discourse, people are watching.

          • Proponent

            I had to lower my level of discourse to get down to your level.

            And, to wit.. on the note of “people are watching”..

            I am granting the readers much more intelligence than you, and that they are capable of seeing right through your vacuous posts/comments.

        • JGC

          Mike, the webpage you linked to doesn’t address herd immunity even once.

          RE: Exley et al’s “Aluminium in brain tissue in autism” which you describe as showing “aluminum is present in the brains of autistic children (and Alzheimers patients) in much higher quantities than normal children” actually does not. FIrst, Exley used no controls: he didn’t measure aluminum levels in normal brains at all, only in the brains of subjects with ASD’s.

          He also didn’t look at aluminum in children’s brains: he looked at 5 subjects whose ages ranged from 15 to 50.

          Third, the method used to measure aluminum content was neither precise not robust: he ran three replicate measurements for each sample and results varied widely–in one case, the same sample returned replicate results of 0.01, 0.64, and 18.57 μg/g dry weight.

          There’s more wrong with Exley’s study, but the above is sufficient of itself to argue against any serious consideration of his findings.

          Re: jbhandleyblog, that wouldn’t be the same J B Handley who’s entry #167 in the Encyclopedia of American Loons, would it?

        • Mike Stevens

          The material you provide comes largely from known antivaccine propaganda sources.
          Do you really want people to just “believe it”, without a single critical thought going through their heads?
          …maybe you do.

          • Judith

            Rubbish – it comes from sources that are independent of Big Pharma which means they are far more trustworthy.

          • Mike Stevens

            Hi Judith, nice to see you and your antivax conspiracist paranoia.
            …But why don’t you reply to our discussion on the other thread? You know, the one where you were going to apologise for claiming there were no double-blind placebo studies of vaccines using saline?
            You asked to discuss the pneumovax study, and I am waiting for you to engage. What else can I tell you about it that you’d like to know?

          • Judith

            You are yet to post me a study that states it uses saline placebo. You posted one that said it uses a placebo but no mention of what was the placebo was.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You are yet to post me a study that states it uses saline placebo. You posted one that said it uses a placebo but no mention of what was the placebo was.”
            I’ve shown you twice that this was saline placebo, Judith.
            Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look completely and utterly stupid?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/561ef85588ab6cd0e44d517fc38894277bb34200eb8067a1bf4f0511b6d92d1b.jpg

          • JGC

            Describe the peer-review standards that are adhered to by these independent sources, Judith.
            I mean, they do conduct peer-review, before accepting articles for publication don’t they?
            If not, by what stretch of the imagination can they be considered more reliable?

        • Acleron

          Exley did not find that aluminium compounds occur more often in autistic brains than normal ones. He couldn’t because he did not do the comparison. In fact he cannot even conclude that Al compounds occur in brains as he did not disclose the treatment of the samples before he tested them. What we do know is that samples were obtained from the Oxford Brain Bank who took no special precautions to exclude aluminium compounds and that his replications were all over the place.

          • tomonthebay

            His replications varied so widely as to call in to question his assay.

          • AutismDadd

            Oh is aluminum in the brain a nutrient aceleron?

          • Acleron

            Keep digging that hole of stupidity.

          • AutismDadd

            Its a yes or no question

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      You need to demonstrate that at least two people are shills before you can address them.

    • JGC

      1) Herd immunity is real, Mike, and understood sufficiently well to be accurately modeled mathematically.

      2) Vaccines have not only caused major reductions in the incidence of infectious diseases, they’ve successfully eradicated diseases like smallpox and rinderpest.

      3) Vaccine formulations don’t contain aluminum: they instead contain aluminum salts used as adjuvants and there is no evidence demonstrating aluminum adjuvants are toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination.

      • Mike Stewart

        Note above the links proving you wrong.

        • Brian

          Links to anti vaccine conspiracy blogs, whose claims fall apart with a tiny bit of fact-checking… prove what, exactly.

        • JGC

          The above links do nothing of the sort, I’m afraid.

      • Judith

        We have Professor Exley and his excellent research on aluminium in vaccines:
        Vaccines use adjuvants to inflame the immune system and force it to respond to pathogens. The most popular adjuvant used in vaccines are aluminum salts. As Dr. Chris Exley demonstrates, after a vaccine is administered, immune-responsive cells quickly travel to the injection site and load up their cytoplasm with the antigen and aluminum salts from the vaccine. The immune-responsive cells then travel throughout the body, taking aluminum cations to unpredictable places, including the brain. When the vesicles undergo acidification, they will dissolve the enclosed aluminum salt. Biologically reactive A13+ aluminum cations rupture the membrane, entering the cell cytoplasm and causing cell death.

        This is the first problem with vaccines; the aluminum that augments an immune response is traveling throughout the body and causing cell death, inflammation, and aluminum toxicity throughout the person. If you’re convinced vaccines are safe, you don’t understand the toxicity of compounding aluminum cations at the cellular level and the potential damage that occurs to the brain and immune system when aluminum-based vaccines are injected.”

        • Mike Stevens

          This is a bit confusing, Judith…

          Why do you describe research that didn’t use any controls as “excellent”?
          Is it now OK for us to tell you about studies that not only don’t use double-blind saline placebo controls (like you demand as being a requirement for studies on vaccines), but don’t use any controls whatsoever?
          Can we describe them as excellent?

        • JGC

          Exleys research isn’t excellent: in his introduction he falsely states that Aluminum has been linked to the development of ASD’s , his study lacked any controls and the only confounders addressed were age and gender with no attempt made to look at likely confounders like diet, family history of ASD’s, etc.

          And the method used for measurement of aluminum in samples was neither accurate nor precise: replicate values for the same samples varied widely. One sample for example returned values for aluminum burden as 0.01, 0.64, and 18.57 ug aluminum per gram dry sample weight. Another returned values of 2.44, 1.66 and 22.11.
          Clearly even if aluminum is there Exley’s method isnt capable of measuring how much.

          As for aluminum causing ‘cell death throughout the body’, what is your evidence that alumni nun adjuvants at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination are toxic or otherwise harmful? Be specific.

          I mean, you do actually have some—right?

          • Judith

            What scientist or research paper do you rely on for your evidence that aluminium is safe? Please post just one.

          • JGC

            must I remind you again that vaccine formulations don’t contain aluminum, but instead may contain aluminum salts used as adjuvants?

            For the latter I rely on the entire body of evidence rather than a particular scientist’s opinion or a single article. If I’m limited to citing only one I’ll go with da Silva et al’s PMID: 26029975, which discusses the methodology employed when assessing the safety of aluminum adjuvants and has an extensive bibliography of papers assessing safety of different vaccine adjuvants, in large part because the full text is available through PubMed

        • AutismDadd

          I’m just reading about Aluminum Encephalopathy and seizures at the Epilepsy Foundation site. Quite interesting its recognized by this organization.Oh, and pmc3680909 which explains it in depth.

  • CDubbs

    Correction: California doesn’t just require it for public schools. Private schools AND home school group instruction. Oh and any parent volunteers at ANY school must show proof of up to date shots.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      Except while it does require it for public schools and private schools, there is a specific exception for “home-based private schools” which is what homeschooling would count as. Legally, co-ops count as field trips from the homeschool, iirc.

      https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB277

      Now, if I read the law right, you are technically supposed to file a RBE/PBE with someone if you homeschool but technically, you were supposed to do that before SB277 anyway.

  • Jens_disqussion

    Hundreds of new vaccines are in the works. Is anyone who wants to see thorough safety research with actual zero exposure groups for adverse outcomes comparisons and respect for informed consent upheld for any of these new vaccines going to be called “anti-vaccine?”

    It’s very possible, as we don’t have the same for any vaccine currently in use.

    • Mike Stevens

      There are many vaccines being investigated and researched. The number that will finally be licensed for general use after safety and efficacy testing may be only a small proportion of that total.

      I am keen, as are all doctors and researchers, that they will only be used when there is adequate data concerning safety and efficacy. I expect all vaccines will come with Vaccine Information Statements and be given with informed consent as is currently the case. We do have that information for vaccines in current use.

      I am not antivaccine, no.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

      That would depend on what they mean by respect for informed consent upheld.

  • JSB Morse

    Saying “anti-vaccine” or “pro-vaccine” is a false dichotomy and a part-to-whole fallacy. Not all vaccines are the same in efficacy or safety. https://paleofam.com/2015/02/logical-fallacies-in-the-vaccination-debate/

    • Proponent

      Back pimping your website, are you?

    • Brian

      I describe as anti-vaccine those who spread false information to vilify vaccination.

      It’s been almost two weeks, and you refuse to correct the false information in your anti-vaccine article.

      • Judith

        I describe those who belong to the pro vaccine cult as having their head in the sand and refusing to look at the damage vaccines are causing and fanatically vilifying those that dare to question.

        • Brian

          Well, this is embarrassing!

          The person who routinely copy/pastes the same debunked nonsense from conspiracy blogs, and still denies that studies exist four years after being shown to her, is accusing others of having their heads in the sand.

  • Mike Stewart

    Anyone perusing this forum should know that I have shown that,
    1. Herd immunity does not exist and never has from vaccinations.
    2. Vaccinations did not reduce the incidence or likelihood of a person getting the disease in any major way, or dying from the disease. Vaccines have had some success, but at a greater health cost than a health benefit.
    3. Aluminum adjuvants are toxic and a key reason the children are now dying, getting autism or some other disease far worse than what is being vaccinated against.
    I can share the links again, or you can read the comments below.
    Note the hostility directed towards anyone that questions the “official sources” paid for, of course, by the pharmaceutical industry which we can discuss anytime in more depth.
    Have a good day!

    • Proponent

      “Your Honor?”

      ‘Yes?’

      “Well.. I am not sure how to say this, but, carrying on.. my client would like to inform the court that he is not guilty.”

      ‘Pardon??’

      “My client told me to tell you that he believes that he proved he is not innocent and that extending this trial would constitute a grave injustice to him and a waste of tax payer dollars.

      In his words; “it’s a no-brainer.. I am right in everything I do and say.. no further evidence required”.”

      ‘Oh my.. case dismissed, then. And with sincere apologies to your client, Solicitor.’

      • Mike Stewart

        A poet! Nice. I paint.

    • JGC

      1) Not only does herd immunity exist, it san be accurately modeled mathematically.

      2) People who receive 1 dose of the MMR vaccine are 93% less likely to contract measles,78% less likely to contract mumps, and 97% less likely to contract rubella following exposure to these diseases, which seems like pretty major reductions in likelihood to me,

      As for greater health cost than benefit, do you have any actual evidence demonstrating the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceeds the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against.

      Consider measles: per the WHO there were 145,700 deaths due to measles worldwide in year 2013. Can you demonstrate the MMR vaccine caused that many or more deaths in 2013, or for that matter in any calendar year since it became available?

      3) Do you have any actual evidence demonstrating that aluminum adjuvants are toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination? Or does your argument take no form other than “Ooh–adjuvants. Scary stuff!”?

      • Mike Stewart

        Herd immunity does not exist simply because most adults are not vaccinated or undervaccinated to the degree herd immunity requires.
        https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/coverage/adultvaxview/pubs-resources/NHIS-2016.html
        Reducing the likelihood of catching a disease that is very mild in the vast majority of the population is not a good substitute for the harm vaccines are causing. The evidence of the harm is discounted by the profit driven industry. You likely know this.
        Aluminum adjuvants have been demonstrated to be toxic and harmful, and there are a ton of links you can explore!
        https://vaccinepapers.org/the-foundation-for-al-adjuvant-safety-is-false/
        The following links many relevant studies by international scientists, doctors, biologists and other professionals.
        https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/4/1/international2018
        Happy to school you! Have a good day!

        • Brian

          I missed the part where you schooled anyone.

        • JGC

          Most adults acquired immunity to measles and other vaccines the same way I did, Mike: by contracting the diseases during childhood.

          None of the vaccines on the recommended routine childhood vaccination schedule target diseases that were very mild in the past–or for that matter, are very mild now.

          Re: vaccinepapers, I haven’t found any evidence at that website that demonstrates adjuvants are toxic in whole organisms at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination.

          Of course, I might have missed something, so I invite you to point me to the peer-reviewed journal article of clinical study that in your personal opinion presents the most credible and compelling evidence that the use of aluminum adjuvants is unsafe, so that we can discuss it.

          I invite you to do the same with whatever study or article found on the Handley website you believe to present the most credible and compelling evidence that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against.

          After, all, it’s not my job to go hunting for evidence that might support claims you’vemade, is it?

    • Mike Stevens

      So why doesn’t everyone still get measles, like they used to do 60 years ago?
      Then there were 3-4 million cases a year in the US.
      Now there are around 100.
      Was it all the handwashing that stopped the airborne virus transmission? Pray tell…

      • john tucci

        Must have been better sanitation ( sarc )

  • Mike Stewart

    Mandatory vaccination is medical tyranny. Forcing a medical procedure on an unwilling patient is not only barbaric, it is criminal.
    The harm vaccines can and do cause is swept under the rug. Physicians are increasingly speaking out about the harm THEY see vaccines causing in THEIR practice.
    At the very least admit that the vaccines are not being adequately tested, there are reasons to believe many are extremely harmful, and that the industry needs to be monitored for fraud and corruption.
    We need to rid our community of parasites like the pharmaceutical industry in whole that feed on our children for profit.
    I am done with this thread, have a good day, and beware of the pharmaceutical shills that require the status quo for a living.

    • Mike Stevens

      If the patient doesn’t want a vaccine, they just say “No thanks”.
      Where is evidence anyone is “forced” to get a vaccine?

      • ciaparker2

        For nearly thirty years in the US, there have been “standing orders” to give newborns the deadly hep-b vaccine at the hospital on the day of birth. Without the knowledge or the permission of their parents. And it has caused autism and other severe conditions in millions of those thus vaccinated, including my daughter.
        And then for those who cannot homeschool their children, making vaccines mandatory for school, as it is in California, Mississippi, and West Virginia, forces parents to get them, willy nilly.

        • FallsAngel

          You don’t know what “standing orders” mean. And I find your claim that you never signed permission for that Help vaccine a little unbelievable. Your daughter has a genetic form of autism; you’ve told us about it.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            I wonder if Mr Parker signed it.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s possible, or maybe Ms. Cia Parker signed the whole form agreeing with the standing orders w/o reading it thoroughly.

          • john tucci

            Yes Falls, but lies are hard to remember.

          • Ron Roy

            Hospitals vaccinate babies for Hep B, without the parents permission, all the time.I advise everyone, locally, to never take their eyes off their baby after it is born and get someone, if need be, to follow anyone who takes that baby out of the mothers sight.

          • JoeFarmer

            “I advise everyone, locally, to never take their eyes off their baby…”

            People should listen to you like they listen to the shopping cart lady who yells at parking meters.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

          Cia, I must have read that wrong. It’s almost like you’re trying to claim that there are closed borders between states. Or that parents can be smarter than most economists, most biologists, most immunologists, and pretty much most every other relevant field and yet are too dumb to figure out a solution for homeschooling that works for their family, including the financial side.

          • Ron Roy

            Parents are not bought off like those scientist who support vaccinations. So yes they are smarter. Homeschooling is fairly inexpensive but the baby sitters needed, when the parents are at work, are very expensive. And most parents are at work when their children are at school.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            And they’re too dumb to work out night shifts or staggered shifts? Again, don’t make me laugh.

          • Ron Roy

            Gee and I thought only the site of vaccine injured babies made you laugh.

          • JoeFarmer

            No, that’s the anti-vax sociopaths like you, ciaparker, sabelmouse, etc. that laugh at children dying from vaccine-preventable diseases.

            Ron Roy proves once again why he’s known as The Little Engine That Couldn’t.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Which website was that, Ron? And what vaccine injured babies were you referring to?

          • JoeFarmer

            “Parents are not bought off like those scientist who support vaccinations.”

            And there’s another claim with absolutely zero proof from Ron Roy, The Little Engine Who Couldn’t.

          • Ron Roy

            ”The 10 drugs for which companies spent the most in payments to
            physicians in 2015 (teaching hospital payments not included) were blood
            thinner Xarelto ($28.4 million), rheumatoid arthritis drug Humira ($24.9
            million), diabetes drug Invokana ($20.9 million), hepatitis C drug
            Viekira ($19.2 million), blood thinner Eliquis ($18.8 million), diabetes
            drug Bydureon ($18.5 million), testosterone drug Androgel ($15.3
            million), thyroid drug Synthroid ($14.7 million), synthetic hormone
            Lupron ($14.3 million) and diabetes drug Victoza ($11.9 million).” Source: Dollars for Doctors. Courtesy of the BIG ENGINE THAT CAN. I’ll be glad to post more if you like.

          • JoeFarmer

            And there’s more unattributed copypasta.

            It doesn’t validate your claim. It doesn’t even mention the CDC, genius. Ron, you just proved you’re the Little Engine that Couldn’t once again.

          • Judith

            When you have no argument you use the old bandaid and call it a copy paste.

          • JoeFarmer

            That’s exactly what it is, Judith. When you copy something and paste it without attribution. You do the same thing all the time. It can be called plagiarism, too.

            Ron Roy claimed that the CDC has received millions in funding from pharmaceutical companies. I challenged him to provide proof and twice he has barfed up copypasta that does not support his claim. Which is exactly the same behavior you exhibit.

            Why are all anti-vaxxers pathological liars, Judith?

          • Mike Stevens

            “An estimated 60% of biomedical research and development in the United States is now privately funded.”

            The facts tell us different.
            Industry funding of research has dropped from around 50% in 2006 to 36% in 2014.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5798a82b9645030a25a0dd975799e9de243a0ba7ecc3d4d96fe6843d7eed61e9.jpg

          • JGC

            “There you go with that whole ‘facts’ thing again–who has time to pay any attention to those? I’ve got a lot of people to scare out of vaccinating their children to worry about instead!”

          • Ron Roy

            2014? This is from an article published in 2018 “An estimated 60% of biomedical research and development in the United States is now privately funded,” Your information is ancient history.

          • Mike Stevens

            Ron, my data is from 2014.
            Your quote is from 2003.
            https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=2187685955252618200&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&sciodt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=%23p%3D2IPxEsk4XB4J
            Care to review which of us is citing “ancient history”, because it ain’t me…

          • Ron Roy

            ”In 2011, the pharmaceutical industry spent $39 billion on research in the United States while the NIH spent $31 billion.5 An article in The Washington Post explains why pharmaceutical funding for medical research is a problem:”

            Before the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approves a prescription drug,
            it must first go through a series of clinical trials. Data obtained
            from these trials should ensure the safety and effectiveness of drugs
            before they make it into the hands of patients.

            Big Pharma funds and runs the majority of clinical trials

            Each year, the National Institutes of Health’s (NIH) budget provides less money to fund clinical trials. Because of this, Big Pharma pays for and runs the majority of these trials.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ll take your attempt to switch the subject as acknowledgement that you were the one quoting data from 15 years ago, and you didn’t even know it.

            Regarding your latest attempt to point out Pharma funding of research… You still can’t count or understand what you are reading.

            “In 2011, the pharmaceutical industry spent $39 billion on research in the United States while the NIH spent $31 billion.”

            Yes, Ron, that accords with what I told you. See my source above, or below (I’ll repost it). You can see that by 2014 Industry funding had dropped from 40% of trials to 36% of trials – a continuing trend.

            “Big Pharma funds and runs the majority of clinical trials”

            You have trouble reading, don’t you?
            In 2014 Pharma funded 36% of trials. That’s NOT a “majority”.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5798a82b9645030a25a0dd975799e9de243a0ba7ecc3d4d96fe6843d7eed61e9.jpg

          • Ron Roy

            You seem to forget that drug companies FUND government agencies that conduct trials. And those trials had better have the desired outcome.

          • Mike Stevens

            The contribution is usually trivial, but agreed, funding can come from various sources.

            …And if there is a pharma company producing a rival drug or vaccine that is also funding the agency? ..then the trial had better have the opposite of the desired income, logically.

          • Proponent

            “privately funded”.. huh.

            Are you referring to this “privately funded” research, Ronald P. Roy?

            Newsweek | “Anti-Vaxxers Accidentally Fund a Study Showing No Link Between Autism and Vaccines”

            IFLScience | “Anti-Vaxxers Fund Study That Finds Zero Link Between Vaccinations And Autism”

          • Ron Roy

            Zero link I don’t think so:

            ”When they say, “Scientific studies have proven that vaccines don’t cause autism!”
            Then you say, “Despite what you’ve heard in the media, only one shot and one ingredient have ever been studied for their role in causing autism.”
            In the following two CDC (Centers for Disease Control) studies, just
            one shot– out of the ten single and combination shots on the infant
            vaccination schedule– and one ingredient– out of more than three dozen–
            have ever been studied in relation to autism. And both studies reek of scientific fraud.”

            ”Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, the lead author of the CDC’s 2003 mercury-doesn’t-cause-autism study,
            sounded the alarm when he found that mercury-based thimerosal
            preservative was causing a 760% increase in autism prevalence.
            Thimerosal was used in the Hep B vaccines and DTaP vaccines up until
            2003, and is continued to be used in flu shots today. But, according to
            the World Mercury Project, Verstraeten was pushed aside while others
            reworked his study to bury the damaging discovery. Verstraeten
            then resigned from the CDC, returned to his homeland, and took a job
            with GlaxoSmithKline before his CDC study was even published, which
            Congress found to be a violation of ethics. The nail in the coffin came
            during a 2004 Institute of Medicine Review of that study, when the CDC’s
            presentation slides revealed that they had “lost” the study’s raw data
            sets used from the Vaccine Safety Datalink”.

          • Proponent

            And when they cite a study that was privately funded by Safeminds that showed no link between vaccines and autism.. you best try to change the subject.

            And..

            You could see what Levi Quakenboss has to say about using her stuff for your copypasta:

            “So you want to steal my content

            Don’t steal my content. I don’t get paid to write this stuff.

            You may copy up to the first 200 words of a post, credit Levi Quackenboss on your blog, and link to my original post as “Continue reading here.”

            Thanks.”

            … …

            Two yuuuge fails in one post/comment, Ronald P. Roy.. you’re improving.

          • Judith

            It isn’t so much the parents who are bought off it is the law makers, doctors an lobbyists. Big Pharma dollars reach deeply into the pockets or these ubiquitous people.

          • JoeFarmer

            You make a claim without evidence, so it can be dismissed without evidence. Duh.

          • Judith

            “The CDC vaccine branch…is really a
            subsidiary of the vaccine industry. It
            sells $4.1 billion worth of vaccines a
            year. It spends about $4.6 billion,
            about half of its budget promoting
            vaccines and it only spends $20 million
            testing vaccines (!)…I’ve been meeting
            recently with the heads of various
            Federal agencies and one of the
            shocking things about vaccines is that
            there’s very little safety testing. Robert Kennedy

          • JoeFarmer

            That is not evidence, Judith.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The CDC vaccine branch…is really a subsidiary of the vaccine industry. It sells $4.1 billion worth of vaccines a year.”

            That is a blatant lie Judith, and since you have been shown before that it is a lie, you are a liar for repeating this claim.

            The CDC buys vaccines and then distributes them free of charge as part of its charitable “Vaccines for Children” programme, which is an extremely worthy and laudable humanitarian project which ensures that children receive vaccines who otherwise would not get any because of inability to pay.

          • Proponent

            Ron Roy: “Homeschooling is fairly inexpensive but the baby sitters needed, when the parents are at work, are very expensive. And most parents are at work when their children are at school.”

            Huh.

            So.. it’s expensive when a parent has to hire a babysitter, is it, Ronald P. Roy?

            Wonder what the costs are when a vaccine preventable illness runs rampant through a community and parents have to hire a babysitter? Or, worse.. the costs when that child is hospitalized?

            Wonder what the costs are when a vaccine preventable illness runs rampant through a community and the parents have to take time off work, because they are sick?

            Measles, Mumps and Rubella (MMR) .. M-M-R®II .. $70.92

            “In this modeling study of children (age 2-11 years), a 5% reduction in measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination coverage resulted in a 3-fold increase in annual measles cases with an additional US$2.1 million in public sector costs.”

            “We estimated a cost (2016 US$) of $20 000 per case of measles from the perspective of the public sector (ie, local and state public health institutions) based on the literature. These costs included state and local expenses to the public sector, including personnel wages and salaries, contact tracing, transportation, laboratory analysis, vaccination, overhead, and other costs. These estimates did not account for costs of illness, loss productivity to the parent, hospitalization (common in the prevaccine era), or other societal aspects, and our base case cost may represent a conservative estimate.”

            (Source: JAMA Pediatrics | “Public Health and Economic Consequences of Vaccine Hesitancy for Measles in the United States” )

          • Judith

            Are you kidding me – it is the poor parents who suffer the most. This is economic discrimination. Home schooling means a parent has to stop working and there may be no other homeschoolers or suitable homeschool parents in your vicinity.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            In that case, Judith, file a class action lawsuit for disparate impact. Let me know how you get on.

            And it’s not like you’re chained to your house.

          • Judith

            Again you think it is easy or free to file a lawsuit for a government that goes against the Nuremberg Convention and ignores a citizen’s right to what they put in their body.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

            Then write the Hauge a letter – they are the court of international justice after all and please show me the law that ignores a citizen’s right to what they put in their body and the violation of Nuremberg Convention

            Hint: Your born child’s body is not your body.
            Hint: Nuremberg refers to experiments, not established medical protocols.
            Hint: Other options have been discussed before.

            As to whether I think it’s easy to win? Probably not. But it’s sure damn impossible to win a lawsuit you don’t file.

          • Judith

            the Nuremberg Code basically states that:

            “The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.”

    • Brian

      So after spamming this thread with nonsense, you say you are “done with this thread”?

      Good riddance.

    • JGC

      Who do you believe is forcibly vaccinating anyone against their will, Mike? Be specific.

      How exactly have those physicians speaking out demonstrated a causal association between the harm they believe they’re seeing and routine vaccination? It is, I trust, based on something other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

      Vaccines already must negotiate preclinical and phase 1, 2 and 3 clinical testing prior to FDA or EMEA approval, after which they remain subject to extensive post-marketing surveillance.What additional testing do you feel is needed to attain ‘adequacy’? Be specific.

      • Ron Roy

        You can’t possibly be so stupid as to believe preventing someone from attending a school, which has been financed through everyone’s taxes, if they’re not vaccinated is not an act of force.To be fair the state should reimbursed that portion of the tax which goes to the school system to those opposing vaccines.

        • JGC

          You can’t be so stupid as to believe that choices should be free of consequence, can you? Or that applicants who fail to meet the eligibility requirements for entry into an academic institution should be allowed to attend anyway?

          And no: the sates should no more reimburse the portion of the tax which goes to the school system to those opposing vaccines than they should reimburse the portion of property taxes to homeowners who do no have children attending public school. Both still accrue significant benefit as the result schools funded by taxation (for example, all economic benefits that derive from our nation having an educated workforce.)

          • Judith

            What is the purpose of punitive measures when herd immunity does not work? For instance the whooping cough vaccine does not prevent transmission and has mutated anyway. Your kids should be protected if they are vaccinated or it is an admission that the vaccines do not work and thirdly most adults are not vaccinated so they are the biggest source of disease.

          • JGC

            This isn’t a punitive measure: it’s a public health policy that reduce the risk of infection for all children attending public school or daycare.

            As for herd immunity, not only does it ‘work’s but it’ sufficiently understood to be accurately modeled mathematically.

            The whooping cough vaccine demonstrably reduces incidence, and the vaccine has not mutated.

            The only way that all vaccinated children would be protected against infection would be if all vaccines were 100% effective at causing the generation of protective titers. That isn’t the case, however, and no one has suggested otherwise. Some individuals simply aren’t capable of developing protective titers following vaccination or actual infectious disease. My son is one of them: he received varicell@ vaccination but has h@d the chicken pox there times. He relies on herd immunity to avoid a fourth infection.

            The ‘most adults’ who are not vaccinated aren’t vaccinated because they’re old enough to have contracted diseases like mumps, measles, chickenpox etc. prior to the development of vaccines and acquired immunity through actual infection. They still have acquired immunity and therefore do not compromise herd immunity.

          • JoeFarmer

            Your post demonstrates that you are a pathological liar.

          • Ron Roy

            And yours demonstrates that you can only resort to name calling because you can’t come up with any logical answer.

          • JoeFarmer

            How about you provide proof of the CDC receiving millions of dollars from industry, Mr. Little Engine that Couldn’t?

          • Judith

            “The congressional committee noted that FDA and CDC advisory committee members and chairpersons own stock in the vaccine companies under consideration as well as owning vaccine patents. The CDC “grants conflict of interest waivers to every member of their advisory committee a year at a time and allows full participation in the discussions leading up to a vote by every member,” even if a member has a financial stake in the decision.

            The Reform Committee also discussed the example of the FDA’s vote to approve the ill-fated rotavirus vaccine. Ten of the fifteen VRBPAC members were either absent or were excluded from the vote, whereas five “temporary” members parachuted in to join the remaining five in voting to license the vaccine. Moreover, “three out of the five [permanent] members…who voted for the rotavirus vaccine had conflicts of interest that were waived.”

            Overall, the congressional review sketched a portrait of an “old boys network” of experts and advisors who “rotate between the CDC and FDA, at times serving simultaneously.” In one case, after finding that an expert had served continuously for 16 years, the chairman asked, “With over 700,000 physicians in this country, how can one person be so indispensable that they stay on a committee for 16 years?”

            https://www(dot)scribd(dot)com/document/87934557/Vaccine-development-and-conflicts-of-interest

          • JoeFarmer

            That’s a complete nothingburger. Dan Burton never did generate anything of value.

          • AutismDadd

            How childish.

          • Judith

            Which part of my post is lies and I will post you the proof – your standard calling people a liar without pointing out where is typical of a pharma toadie.

          • Brian

            Yes you are a pathological liar.

            Lie #1: Judith says “herd immunity does not work”
            Nope. Herd immunity is regularly measured, and it’s not zero.

            Lie #2: Judith says “your kids should be protected if they are vaccinated or it is an admission that vaccines don’t work”
            Nope. That’s a perfect example of the Nirvana fallacy.

            Lie #3: “Most adults are not vaccinated so they are the biggest source of disease”

            Wow! Judith just admitted that the biggest source of disease are the unvaccinated! (still a lie though, because most adults are either vaccinated or had the disease, so most are immune and don’t spread disease)

          • JoeFarmer

            Every single sentence, sociopath.

          • Judith

            All you have is name calling – you can’t even produce facts.

          • JoeFarmer

            Every single sentence in your post is a lie – fact.
            You are a sociopath-fact.

          • shay simmons
          • AutismDadd

            Yep JoePharmer is simply a troll

          • AutismDadd

            Block JoeFarmer

          • tomonthebay

            Good grief Judith, you have been caught with one lie and distortion after another.

          • AutismDadd

            Yet tom explains nothing, zippo, nada, just the inane comments again.

          • Mike Stevens

            …Which part of your post is lies, Judith?
            Answer: All of it.
            I’m particularly keen to see your “proof” of how the pertussis vaccine has “mutated”.
            ….Can’t wait, in fact.
            Can you start with that lie, then we can look at your other ones?

          • Judith

            Happy to help you out Mike but you should know this – oops you do but your job is to deny…
            “The bacterium that causes whooping cough, Bordetella pertussis, has changed – most likely in response to the vaccine used to prevent the disease – with a possible reduced effectiveness of the vaccine as a result, a new study shows.

            A UNSW-led team of researchers analysed strains of Bordetella pertussis from across Australia and found that many strains no longer produce a key surface protein called pertactin.

            About 80 per cent of the 2012 whooping cough cases in Australia studied by the team were caused by pertactin-free strains.

            Pertactin is one of the three proteins, made from purified extracts of Bordetella pertussis bacteria,which are present in the vaccine currently used in Australia. The other two are pertussis toxin and filamentous haemagglutinin.

            “It’s like a game of hide and seek. It is harder for the antibodies made by the body’s immune system in response to vaccination to ‘search and destroy’ the whooping cough bacteria which lack pertactin,” says the senior author of the study, Associate Professor Ruiting Lan, of the UNSW School of Biotechnology and Biomolecular Sciences.

            “This could mean that these pertactin-free strains have gained a selective advantage over bacterial strains with the pertactin protein.”

            The proportion of pertactin-free bacteria rose from five per cent of cases tested in 2008 to 78 per cent in 2012.

            The fact that they have arisen independently in different countries suggests this is in response to the vaccine,” says Associate Professor Lan.

            https://wwwnc(dot)cdc(dot)gov/eid/article/20/4/13-1478_article

          • Mike Stevens

            Sorry Judith… your claim was that the VACCINE had “mutated”.
            Have you got a reference for that?
            …obviously no, you haven’t.

            (And as for your study showing selection of pertactin deficient B pertussis… that was quite a few years ago, and the concern that this might be an issue to worry about has largely disappeared, since it has since been shown to be clinically irrelevant)

          • JoeFarmer

            “…but you should know this – oops you do but your job is to deny…”

            Judith the sociopath has to resort to the shill gambit because she knows she has absolutely no facts to argue with.

          • tomonthebay

            Good grief, your lies are well documented.

          • Ron Roy

            Many states do have tax credits programs for those who choose private schools over public schools. The Senate in NH already passed such a Bill.

          • JGC

            There’s your solution, then: relocate to NH.

          • Ron Roy

            I won’t have to travel too far.

          • shay simmons

            “Many states do have tax credits programs for those who choose private schools over public schools..”

            Which ones allow taxpayers who don’t have children to opt out?

          • FallsAngel

            Which states are those? Sounds like NH’s bill has not yet become a law.

    • FrenchKissed

      Maybe you could spearhead the campaign to colonize the moon or Mars so you can form a new society where you aren’t persecuted for your wacky beliefs? Your extra-terrestrial Utopia wouldn’t last forever, as eventually science would catch up to it; but with the right group of colonists you might get a hundred years or more before people began demanding change or it became New Croatoan.

      Otherwise you can stay here where people are required to provide their children with food, clothing, a basic education and proper medical care.

  • Acleron

    If antivaxxers are so sincere, why do they lie to attempt to force their agenda?

    • Ron Roy

      It’s the pro-poison oops I mean pro- vaxxers who are trying to force their agenda.

      • Acleron

        Identifying the facts is pushing an agenda? Sheesh.

        • Ron Roy

          Your reply makes no sense whatsoever.

          • Acleron

            Very little makes sense to you. Having to resort to silly conspiracy theories when faced with facts is just one of your characteristics.

          • Ron Roy

            According to your way of thinking VAERS is full of conspiracy theories.How can you sleep at night? Doesn’t your conscience bother you when you defend vaccines? Or is money your God?

          • AutismDadd

            Acleron has Blind Faith Syndrome . Its chronic. Only cure is a coffee enima

          • roscoe

            You certainly need a rest AD take a break for a while. It will do you good.

          • AutismDadd

            I’m fine.

          • Acleron

            No I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. These may well be genuine reporting of events but without appropriate controls they cannot be proven to be caused by vaccines. Only an idiot takes any adverse event to prove their pet idea. Either antivaxxers cannot understand that point in which case they, and you, are idiots, or they do understand it and are dishonest. Now we already know you have lied about the frequency of reporting on VAERS so I’d guess you are a lying idiot.

            Why should I have any conscience over a modality that has saved more lives and morbidities than any other intervention? Your lying propaganda is killing and injuring people, you obviously have no conscience whatsoever.

            I point out your stupid lies and idiocies for free because I have seen the prevaccine era, despite your lies it was not pleasant.

          • Ron Roy

            You are utterly despicable and a liar. Vaccines had NOTHING to do with the decline of diseases. Vaccines have cause untold suffering especially in undeveloped countries where the populace is badly nourished are are unable to resist the assault on their bodies by vaccines. The measles vaccine alone has killed hundreds in undeveloped countries as did the polio vaccine in India.

          • Acleron

            Then you will be able to explain why reduction in MMR coverage in areas of Italy has coincided with a massive outbreak of measles. The last person with your level of intelligence claimed it was because of malnutrition in Italy. I doubt they could even point it out on an atlas.

          • Ron Roy

            Because of the reduction in MMR poisoning ops I mean coverage doctors were inclined to report every case of measles, or anything resembling measles, to the authorities. Whereas when everyone got the MMR vaccine they, like American doctors who only report a small fraction of diseases that their patients are supposedly protected from through vaccines, reported only a small fraction of measles cases. It’s easy to create an epidemic by reporting more cases of diseases then they normally would have.

          • Acleron

            Ah, I see, thousands are being hospitalised and people are dying from measles all the time. /sarc

          • AutismDadd

            That area of the World has seen an influx of migrants so rather than reduction, they simply haven’t been poisoned yet.

          • Acleron

            So are these migrants vaccinated or not and who is acquiring measles infections? What is the percentage of migrants in the region of Italy that is experiencing death and injury by measles.

          • AutismDadd

            Look it up dude.

          • Acleron

            Lol, so it is just a random nonsensical claim.

          • AutismDadd

            Did you look it up?

          • Acleron

            Until you supply the evidence, it remains a random claim by Duddy Boy. You haven’t even learned that I don’t have to look up your brain farts, you have to prove them.

          • AutismDadd

            You forgot to mention 19 countries that compensate for vaccine adverse reactions Sparky.

          • AutismDadd

            I don’t think Acleron is neurotypical.

          • AutismDadd

            Says one of the fools who pander to those who believe the Wakefield conspiracy rubbish and others.

          • tomonthebay

            You are the one that believes rubbish about a conspiracy against Wakefield. The man was a con and was caught.

          • AutismDadd

            tom steps up to expose what a tool he is. Thanks tom

          • JoeFarmer

            Says the Little Engine Who Couldn’t.

          • AutismDadd

            Now Pharmer is doing his inner child routine. Way to boost your credibility Sparky!

          • schpadoinkle

            🙂

          • AutismDadd

            They are good at that aren’t they?

        • AutismDadd

          Oh? Have you done that…EVER?

    • AutismDadd

      Why do you lie about Vaccine Safety Advocates?

    • AutismDadd

      Ask Senator Pan that

    • Occams
      • Acleron

        That study is confounded by the selection procedure both in the target group and method of acquiring data (self reporting).

        • Occams

          lol! I looked at your ‘upvotes’. SAME PEOPLE, as always, who follow these sites – or the same sock-puppet accounts astroturfing vax sites! What a laugh. What pathetic, desperate losers. Whoring for a paycheck.

          Now….Let’s put on our Thinking Caps, shall we?

          WHO…and this is a toughy…would have the money and resources to pay online shills?

          Who has the most to protect (and lose) should a nation of idiots ever wakes up?

          I KNOW! RUSSIA!!!

          Fツcking morons.

          • Acleron

            I notice you cannot rebut or even debate the arguments given. Antivaxxers never can.

          • Occams

            You’re right. We can’t. Because if we argue facts with an idiot, you’ll beat us with experience. Besides – you simply ignore what doesn’t suit murderous Big Pharma’s agenda.

            Who signs your checks…..

          • Acleron

            Facts don’t rely on my experience with them. However taking a sample of homeschoolers as representative of the population and further confounding the data with self-reporting does not provide any facts for the whole population. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the facts and not rely on a poisoning of the well strategy with silly accusations. And I’ll tell you how silly they are, when I argue facts with an anti-GMO person apparently I am a Monsanto shill and with an anti-Theory of Evolution I am part of the great biology conspiracy. It may make your lack of facts to make an argument easier to bear but lying about my motives just discloses how bereft of evidence you are. In fact, I am old enough to have experienced life before vaccines, old enough to have seen iron lung wards, to see schoolboys in calipers. I have no wish to allow the fitter and healthier generations after me to suffer such horrors again from lying propaganda from antivaxxers.

          • tomonthebay

            And there is the SHILL and BIG PHARMA screech all together in one silly post.

          • tomonthebay

            Yes you are.

          • Occams

            lol…What are you? 4th Grade? jesus christ.

          • tomonthebay

            Russians? Are you in 4th grade?

          • Occams
          • tomonthebay

            Anti-vaxxers are the morons Occams.

          • Occams
          • JoeFarmer

            “Now….Let’s put on our Thinking Caps, shall we?”

            You failed that task.

          • tomonthebay

            Occams is another conspiracy theorist. Impossible to take them seriously.

          • JoeFarmer

            It’s really painful reading the garbage he comes up with. Even worse, he thinks he’s smart.

      • Brian

        Why are you promoting deceptive papers that were retracted as fraudulent?

        Do you have any evidence at all that stands up to the tiniest bit of fact-checking?

        • Occams

          Ya’all got bitchslapped, huh?

          • Brian

            Poe?

  • Proponent

    Curiosity got the better of me.. so, went over the PFIC website, and this how they explained away the ‘insignificant risk of a non-vaccinated child to immuno-compromised schoolchildren’..

    “As described in the information statement, some vaccines fail to prevent the spread of the bacteria or viruses they target, which means certain infectious diseases, such as pertussis (whooping cough), are spread regardless of a child’s vaccination status.
    In addition, not all infectious diseases targeted for vaccination are contagious; for example, tetanus cannot spread from person to person under any circumstances. Consequently, a child’s vaccination status for a non-contagious disease does not pose a risk to immunocompromised schoolchildren. Furthermore, some infectious diseases are not spread in schools; for instance, the main routes of hepatitis B transmission are sexual contact, injection drug use, and being born to an infected mother—routes of transmission that do not occur in school.

    The information statement also describes how some infectious diseases, like mumps, rarely cause complications in schoolchildren, including immunocompromised schoolchildren. In addition, immune globulin (plasma containing antibodies) is available for immunocompromised children exposed to certain infectious diseases, such as measles, for the prevention of severe symptoms.”

    (Source: Website information summed in: “Physicians for Informed Consent Releases Information Statement About Vaccines and Immunocompromised Schoolchildren” )

    ^ Unreal.

    And, to the point.. that this article’s author would submit to a patently false equivalency (looking at you, Chuck McFadden). Shameful.. and … dangerous.

    • Mike Stevens

      Incredibly misleading bs from them.

  • East Texas Cossack

    End all federal subsidies for corporations and the medical industry, end compulsory schooling. Problem solved.

    • shay simmons

      Or move to Somalia where those conditions already exist.

      • East Texas Cossack

        I plan to invest in the Somali shilling and visit the country soon. Corporate boot lickers need not apply.

        • shay simmons

          Go armed.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com Reality022

            “Go armed.”
            Heavily.
            Preferably with a “technical vehicle” and dual 20mm’s.

          • tomonthebay

            I’m more old school. Big fan of the quad 50.

  • ReviewTheFacts

    I speak to you as someone who has had the measles, prior to the introduction of the vaccine in 1964. I was NEVER so sick in all my life. They closed the school because of the epidemic. 4 kids from my school went into the hospital, and only 3 came out.

    When the vaccine came out, EVERYONE, with the exception of those who had endured the measles already and were considered immune, stood in line to get the immunization. There were long lines, but people didn’t want their kids to suffer the consequences of a disease that killed thousands.

    This horrible disease is no mere “childhood illness.” It’s a killer, and it can leave lasting health issues. It’s hardest on small children and on adults. In adults, it can cause sterility, blindness, and death. It can also cause retardation in kids and, at its worst, it can kill the very young.

    2 recent studies have found the same exact result–there is no difference in the rate of autism between those who have had the vaccine, and those who have not. You are more likely to die from complications of the measles, than to die of the vaccine.

    I would have given anything to have had the vaccine instead of the measles. I had to endure a fever of 104-105, the unbearable rash, the vomiting every day, the dehydration, the constant runny nose, inability to sleep, delirium, nightmares, and the wondering if I’d ever be able to go back to school, or even to walk, since I was so weakened.

    To those who think their kids are unlikely to get it if they are vegan, or rich, or whatever, think again. If you’ve not been immunized, you’ll get it. Why would any parent want their kid to go through that hell, when a vaccine will prevent it?

  • Zeeahan

    The editor of this post is full of shit ..
    Just because he know English doesn’t mean he knows science .or if doctor r really taught how vaccine works
    Pro vaxxer against anti vaccine only demented….only if they knew how vaccine r really made & what they do …
    Vaccine shld be banned immediately ,hep b & bovine serum in vaccine is what is causing Neuro logical disorder

  • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions CSOFOTOM

    Round you go.

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