News

State’s vaccination law under fire

A vaccination in progress. (Photo: Komsan Loonprom)

At least three lawsuits have been filed seeking to overturn California’s new law that prevents children from attending public or private school or day care without getting mandatory vaccinations.

The law, SB 277, went into effect July 1, a day after Gov. Brown signed it. It removes the personal beliefs exemption, which previously allowed parents to skip vaccinations for their children because of religious or personal objections. Now, the only way to avoid vaccinations is to get a medical exemption from a doctor or to home school children.

“It’s not about choice, it’s about the safety of other children at school.” — Richard Pan

Passions are high now as its get closer to the first day of school and the reality sinks in that unvaccinated children will be denied admittance to class.  Advocates on both sides of the vaccination issue reported being harassed and persecuted for their views.

Andrea Sands, a Butte County parent and registered nurse who has declined to fully vaccinate her 5-year-old son, was reluctant at first to give her name because she fears harassment. The issue is so important to her that she has cut back her work hours so she can home school her son.

“We’re going to be discriminated against because of a medical choice we made,” said Sands, who has a master’s degree and teaches nursing students. “If they can now deny my son an education because he’s not fully vaccinated, what other legislation will that lead to and what other children will be denied an education because of medical choices they might make.”

Sen. Richard Pan, D-Sacramento, said the purpose of the law is to protect the health and safety of all California children. Families who choose not to vaccinate are endangering children who are not able to vaccinate for medical reasons such as those who have received an organ transplant, he said.

“It’s not about choice, it’s about the safety of other children at school,” said Pan, who is a medical doctor and received death threats over the law. He said the state is not denying unvaccinated children an education since they have the option of home school or independent study.

A court hearing is scheduled Aug. 12 in federal court in San Diego on one lawsuit’s request for an injunction to halt the law. The suit, filed by the nonprofit Education For All and several parents, contends that SB 277 conflicts with the state constitution’s guarantee of California children’s right to a public education.

Only two other states – Mississippi and West Virginia – do not allow parents to opt out of required vaccines for religious or personal beliefs.

“It’s crazy that they’re taking away a child’s education and saying that’s a good thing” said Rebecca Estepp, a spokesperson for Education for All.

Not everyone has the ability to home school their children – for example, situations in which both parents have to work or where the parents don’t speak English, Estepp said. California law requires that home schooling be done in English.

Estepp said the lawsuit is asking that the state go back to the previous law, Assembly Bill 2109, which required parents seeking personal belief exemptions to skip vaccines to consult with a doctor first.

But Pan said that law didn’t work and that too many parents chose not to vaccinate anyway, leaving more children at risk for catching and spreading preventable diseases. For the 2015-16 school year, the lowest kindergarten vaccination rates were in Trinity County, with only 77 percent getting all the required vaccinations. Other counties with low vaccination rates included Nevada County (77.1 percent) and Tuolumne County (77.7 percent) The highest vaccination rates included Alpine and Sierra counties (100 percent) and Colusa County (99.8 percent). According to public health experts, at least 92 percent of a population must be vaccinated to preserve “herd immunity,” needed to protect those who cannot be immunized like young children or those with weakened immune systems because of illnesses like leukemia.

Only two other states – Mississippi and West Virginia – do not allow parents to opt out of required vaccines for religious or personal beliefs.

Travis Middleton, who filed a lawsuit against SB277 in federal court in Los Angeles along with 25 other plaintiffs, contends that many ingredients in the vaccines are toxic, including aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate and ammonium sulphate. “I want to put the vaccine ingredients on trial,” he said.  The suit says that proponents of the law violated the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.

“They don’t allow parents’ right to choose a medical procedure even though people are being harmed by it,” he said. “Let everybody know that the citizens are rising up to fight this draconian bill.”

Attorney T. Matthew Phillips filed his lawsuit against SB277 in Los Angeles Superior Court but the state has asked that it be addressed in federal court.

Middleton said no hearings are scheduled on the suit so far.

Jodi Hicks, who is a partner in a lobbying firm that helped support the law and is mentioned in the lawsuit, said the case is riddled with errors and will not go forward. She believes those opposing vaccinations are misguided. The state had to impose mandatory vaccinations because personal belief exemptions increased drastically between 2000 and 2012, she said.

“It’s not a case in which something changed with the vaccines,” she said. “It’s a change with the Internet and celebrities making statements.”

She explained that parents have become afraid of vaccinations by reading incorrect information on the Internet and by listening to celebrities who say that vaccines are unsafe.

SB277 was heavily vetted in the legislation process, she added. The courts have ruled in favor of mandatory vaccines in the past.

Attorney T. Matthew Phillips filed his lawsuit against SB277 in Los Angeles Superior Court but the state has asked that it be addressed in federal court. His case lists eight plaintiffs and opposes the law for several reasons, including that it violates the First Amendment, the California Constitution’s protection of the right to go to school and that it wrongly discriminates against children on the basis of vaccination status.

He hopes to get a ruling early this month on whether one of the plaintiffs – a 12-year-old girl who has never been vaccinated – can attend school. Her mother Tamara Buck, who lives in LA County, believes that vaccinations are risky and that natural immunity is the safest for everyone.

“I am a hard-core vaccine abolitionist,” Phillips said. “I hold the individual above the group. I think individual lives come first.”

SB277 has already prompted at least one parent to move to another state, which still allows personal belief exemptions to skip vaccines.

Jean Keese, who has two children ages 7 and 5, moved to Idaho from Placer County. “I didn’t want to live in a state that would discriminate and deny an education to my perfectly healthy child,” she said. “I didn’t want to live in a state that wouldn’t allow me as a parent to make medical decisions in partnership with my doctor. Parents, not politicians should make these decisions.”

Ed’s Note: For more information:
Education For All lawsuithttp://www.edu4allnow.org/news-release/injunction-sought-for-mandatory-vaccine-law-sb-277-court-case-filed-on-implementation-day/
Matthew Phillips lawsuit: http://nebula.wsimg.com/15874c9b36fe1637ae54f7f213b05d7c?AccessKeyId=483E6035AA88E14C0649&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

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764 responses to “State’s vaccination law under fire”

  1. lbhajdu1 . says:

    Lets hope they can overturn this really bad law. Richard Pan must have gotten a lot of kickbacks from GSK for this one.

    • spymon74666 says:

      “Sen. Richard Pan, D-Sacramento, said the purpose of the law is to protect the health and safety of all California children. Families who choose not to vaccinate are endangering children who are not able to vaccinate for medical reasons such as those who have received an organ transplant, he said.”
      How many children are in school with an organ transplant? is he serious? How does such a moron get elected?

      • Zezinik says:

        Right..

      • Leslie says:

        Especially considering that they still push vaccines on organ transplant patients http://www.ishlt.org/ContentDocuments/2014FebLinks_Kumar.html

        There is virtually no CDC approved medical reason for not getting a vaccination, and Sen Pan should know that. So, either he is a lying politician or he is an incompetent doctor.

        • kfunk937 says:

          You’ve totally misconstrued your own source. Your source primarily touches on some reasons to get certain vaccines prior to transplant, because (a) it’s difficult to mount an immune response to some vaccines when immunosuppressed, and (b) it’s difficult to mount an immune response to infection when immunosuppressed.

          Can you even read?

          • Leslie says:

            Yes, I can read. Can you?

            “Immunizations given after transplant usually will be less effective. The use of induction immunotherapy with polyclonal antibody significantly reduces immunogenicity of vaccines for a period of several months. Therefore, it is recommended to wait 3-6 months after transplant to resume immunization.”

            So vaccines are recommended both before and after transplants. Pan’s nonsense about protecting schoolmates with organ transplants who can’t be vaccinated is bogus. Those kids would get Home and Hospital education through schools until they could come back to classroom education.

          • kfunk937 says:

            So, you don’t understand what you read. Got it.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            All live vaccines are contraindicated after transplantation. Some vaccines (but not live vaccines) may be resumed 3-6 months after vaccination.
            If transplantation is planned, all vaccinations should be kept up to date beforehand, to ensure a protective immune response occurs prior to any post transplant immunosuppression.
            Capiche?

          • Leslie says:

            Yes, I can read. Live vaccines would have been given beforehand. Post-transplant (3-6 months) those students would be under Home and Hospital education, so Pan’s “protecting students with organ transplants” reason for replacing AB2109 (least drastic law) for SB277 (most drastic law) is nonsense.

            The same is true for kids going through chemo, vaccines beforehand-Home and Hospital education during & after chemo-resume vaccines after certain time period. I have never seen K-12 kids, who are actively going through chemo, in the classroom.

            SB277 was NOT about protecting the immunocompromised because CDC still recommends vaccine schedule for them. Schools have Home and Hospital education for kids who are having therapies and can’t be exposed to pathogens.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            You can read, but not understand.
            And SB277 is about protecting everyone.

          • AB2109 showed it wasn’t working with the Disneyland outbreak. More drastic measures were needed.

            Nobody can be safely exposed to pathogens – that’s why they’re… well…pathogens and not just germs.

          • Leslie says:

            That is ridiculous. Disneyland is a public place not a school. Measles was brought in by a tourist. And only 17% of the cases were in school aged children. Neither AB2109 or SB277 would have made any difference. SB277 will take 6 years to fully implement, so obviously “drastic measures” are not needed.

          • “That is ridiculous. Disneyland is a public place not a school” Your point is? You realize that kids vaccinated for school don’t magically match

            “Measles was brought in by a tourist.” The tourist was the match. Vaccine refusal was the unlit

            “. And only 17% of the cases were in school aged children.” And quite a few were in kids too young to be vaccinated who sometimes have school-age siblings.

            The school’s the biggest risk, thanks to that 7 hours, 5 days a week thing. We can fix the school.

            “Neither AB2109 or SB277 would have made any difference.” Incorrect. Kids who are vaccinated for school don’t suddenly become unvaccinated when they go to Disneyland.

            “SB277 will take 6 years to fully implement, so obviously “drastic measures” are not needed.” That’s why I said “more drastic” and not “drastic.”

          • Leslie says:

            You have absolutely no proof that the kids too young to be vaccinated caught Disneyland measles from older school-age siblings. You’re just making stuff up.

            83% of the measles cases were NOT in school age kids, so they weren’t even behind the outbreak. In fact 55% of the total cases were in adults.

            AB2109 was in its 1st year of implementation & showed a 20% increase in vaccination rates prior to Disneyland measles. The 2nd year (2015-16) continued to show an increase in vaccination rates. That law proved to be the “least drastic” means to increase rates with access to classroom based education. SB277 is an unnecessary and arbitrary law (taking 6 years to implement) that is the “most drastic” use of police power.

          • No, it’s not. It can’t both take 6 years and be most drastic. Grow up and realize that externalties have to be limited.

            You’re the one making stuff up, Leslie. The point is we can prevent that before it happens – notice that I never claimed that they’d caught it from school-age siblings.

            Now, yes, I grant you that the last outbreak did happen in Disneyland. However, that isn’t typical. Throughout history, epidemics start in school and they start there for logical and predictable reasons. Of course, the timing of the Disneyland outbreak is one of the things that meant it was no more than an outbreak.

            “AB2109 was in its 1st year of implementation & showed a 20% increase in vaccination rates prior to Disneyland measles” Didn’t work.

            And don’t bother with ‘choice’ before you have read this:

            http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/06/SB277-Opposition-Smokescreen-of-Parental-Choice.html

          • AutismDadd says:

            I guess they all died then?

          • AutismDadd says:

            OMG shut the front door. They had the KILLER DISEASE measles and survived? How many were there that managed to survive this KILLER DISEASE?

          • AutismDadd says:

            Avoidance fallacy

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Does SB277 not cover day care/preschool, as well? Why yes, it does! While attendance at same is not universal, a large majority of kids go to one or the other.

        • Ivan Forsch says:

          Have a flag or three, clown.

      • Kathy says:

        The law was written with many people in mind, not only organ transplants.

        But it is “lovely” that you don’t care at all about those people.

        • spymon74666 says:

          First…Pan is a doctor…second he is a California Senator who co-authored the bill…the best reason he had was children with organ transplants is pitiful and I am pointing out how I’ll equipped he is to even make this decision for families period. As far as not caring about those people, which “people” do you speak of? The ones who may be affected by someone who has been recently vaccinated and sheds the virus? Or should we worry about the vaccinated, which makes absolutely no sense since the vaccine is supposed to protect you…and what of the children who are vaccine injured? Should I assume you care nothing of those “people” based on your response?

          • Kathy says:

            I watched all the SB277 hearings. He said far more than just about kids with organ transplants.

            You don’t seem to care about people who need herd immunity to protect them from diseases, who cannot get vaccines.

            Shedding of vaccines is a myth. Please point me to the outbreaks ( as in more than one case ) of any VPDs from vaccine shedding.

            Vaccines don’t work 100% so we all need herd immunity. THAT IS THE POINT.

            I care for everyone, even you.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Prove vaccines have protected anyone. Talk about myth

          • Considering that most vaccine-injured stories are just that…

          • Sonja Henie says:

            He’s a doctor. He thinks like a doctor. I’m a health professional too so I get that. He gave a “worst case” example. But while there are few organ transplant students in school, there are many people, in the aggregate, who can be harmed by VPDs. Lots of normal healthy kids can be harmed by measles, it has a 30% complication rate, a 20-25% hospitalization rate.

          • And maybe the kids actively going through chemo don’t attend school. But their siblings do. And since measles is airborne….

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Exactly!

          • And children do sometimes want and are allowed to visit their siblings…

          • AutismDadd says:

            So a competent doctor will recommend they mingle with the commoners?

          • Strawman fallacy. Let us know when you can count from 0 to 100 and can manage 5th grade maths and 9th grade chemistry. ‘Till then, you’re not capable of making an informed decision either way.

          • AutismDadd says:

            But what if they are killed in a car accident should Pan ban cars in California?

          • Good point! Cars are dangerous!

            Let’s regulate their use: Drink or drive! Text or drive!

            Those are excellent ideas! Of course, we already do that so…

    • Leslie says:

      You also know that “insurance companies pay pediatricians massive bonuses based on the percentage of children who are fully vaccinated by age 2.” https://wellnessandequality.com/tag/blue-cross-blue-shields-physician-incentive-program/

      And that’s not all. This is from a recent interview with Calif Medical Association entirely about pushing vaccines on adults. The goal of the government program Healthy People 2020 has 80-90% of ALL Americans vaccinated according to the CDC (including annual flu vaccines). Notice the line where they say that adult immunization rates will also be tied to doctor’s pay. So, doctors and Big Pharma make a lot of money by pushing mandatory vaccinations for work or school. At the least it’s medical coercion and at the most extortion.

      “Q: What else is being done to increase vaccination rates among adults?

      A good electronic medical record system will prompt a physician to give the vaccines when they are due. Even better systems send out widespread notices to patient populations automatically to tell them it’s time for their flu vaccine.

      More than that, there is more peer pressure that if you don’t vaccinate your patient population, you will be judged. Eventually that will be one of the markers for how much you get paid.”

      Source: californiahealthline, vaccines-are-not-just-for-kids

      • Sonja Henie says:

        Note the criteria in the Blue Cross program is 63%, and that kids with contraindications are excluded.

      • kfunk937 says:

        Look, insurance companies are reeeally good at running numbers, and know that it’s more expensive to treat than prevent diseases. Why do you think that that might be a problem? Isn’t it more a bulwark to prevention?

        • Leslie says:

          If that’s the case, then there should be mandatory elimination of junk food, cigarettes and alcohol since they are linked to more severe health issues & death.

          • kfunk937 says:

            Shifting goalposts duly noted.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Leslie wins and you offer sour grapes

          • Reality022 says:

            So if an insurance company had a reward system for doctors who effectively reduced their rate of patient tobacco smoking you’d be against it and consider it some sort of nefarious conspiracy and not a positive health outcome which will save the insurance company money in the long run?

            At what point do you finally reject your anti-science bias and delusions?

          • Leslie says:

            If a doctor can convince a patient without making it mandatory for employment, school, or continued medical care, then fine. It’s unconscionable when they are personally receiving financial gain, then using medical coercion or mandatory laws to force a Hobson’s Choice for patients.

          • Reality022 says:

            Nice dodge, Leslie. Why is it that anti-vaccine cultists can never just give a straight answer but always dodge or change the subject or move the goalposts?

            I think you don’t understand this entire situation. The doctors are not making vaccination “mandatory for employment or school”. They have every right to run their business in a manner they see fit.
            There are already a number of anti-smoking laws and regulations on the books. Are they evil conspiracies by Big pHARMA and doctors?

            So, do you see a reward for doctors convincing patients to cease smoking tobacco as an evil Big pHARMA conspiracy or as a positive, beneficial outcome?
            Simple question = simple answer.

            (Then see if you can see an equivalence between anti-smoking rewards and anti-vaccine preventable disease rewards.)

          • Leslie says:

            California Medical Association (doctors) were actively behind and lobbying for SB277, which is mandatory vaccinations for access to public classroom education…doctors who will receive financial bonuses and have their pay tied to increasing vaccination rates.

          • Kathy says:

            And the Cali Chiros were actively behind lobbying for SB277 to fail? Your point is….????
            And the article in question, the one you linked, is about MICHIGAN.

          • Reality022 says:

            Cali Naturopathetics, too.
            Both the Chiroquacks and Naturoquacks gotta’ keep their supplement sales up. If everyone starts looking at medical care scientifically and demands evidence that a treatment or potion actually is effective and safe their quacky industry is finished as there is no objective evidence for their witch-doctory.

          • Leslie says:

            Let me reiterate what was said in the above referenced interview with Calif Medical Assoc: “More than that, there is more peer pressure that if you don’t vaccinate your patient population, you will be judged. Eventually that will be one of the markers for how much you get paid.”

            That’s the same Doctors Association behind lobbying for mandatory vaccinations as SB277…doctors who will receive financial bonuses and pay tied to vaccination rates (both for children and adults). Sorry but the Calif Chiropractors don’t receive any financial benefit whether they are for or against mandatory vaccinations.

            So, it is not just Blue Cross/Shield of Michigan.

          • Kathy says:

            Let’s use the Michigan example.

            BCBS gives Michigan docs $400 for every fully vaccinated 2 year old.

            The average cost of a measles complication is $10,000. 30% of measles cases suffer complications.

            $400 to prevent complications or $10,000 (at least) to treat complications

            How is this a problem to you?

          • Kathy says:

            Cali Chiros receive financial benefit in the customers they create by perpetuating vaccine misinformation. That is their point.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Nice dodge AND shifting goalposts with a side of strawman

          • Kathy says:

            Did you read the actual BCBS doc linked in that article? You did not,
            did you? They have incentives for many other wellness protocols. Because
            they want to save money!

          • Nope. Junk food only affects you. Alcohol is already accounted for – that’s why drunk driving is against the law. Cigarettes – that’s why there’s laws about where you can smoke.

          • Leslie says:

            Go back & reread kfunks comment to me about insurance companies being soooo concerned with “preventing diseases” that it justifies pushing mandatory laws. Keep up will ya.

          • They do prevent diseases, Leslie in the same way that driving sober prevents accidents. As for mandatory laws, the justification predates most insurance companies.

            There is of course, the distinction-with-a-difference. Again, keep up.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            So you think insurance companies want lose over $1 billion in this vaccination scheme to pay doctors “massive” amounts of money …for nothing?
            How do you explain away their desire to commit financial suicide?

            “3 million kids each year x $400 per kid = $1,200,000

      • Kathy says:

        So, let me get this straight. Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan pays Michigan providers on their enrollment $400 for every 2 year old who is fully vaccinated. Considering that one measles complication costs them $10,000, at least, this seems like a considerable savings for BCBS. Each provider probably has only a few fully vaccinated 2 year olds who are enrolled with BCBS of MI, so this probably nets them a few thousand $$ a year, at most. And you all think this is a big deal? BCBS is SAVING MONEY.

      • Ecological fallacy. Next.

      • Good. Vaccines are standard of care so people should be judged if non-medically-exempt kids aren’t vaccinated.

      • David says:

        Wow. Another person who believes everything they read. Any pediatrician accepting a payment in return for vaccinating children would lose their license permanently and the company would be fined billions of dollars. Which of the bogus websites is floating this garbage theory.

        • Leslie says:

          Nobody seems to be getting fined or losing their license.

          Here’s the actual Blue Cross/Shield 2016 Provider Incentive Program that shows how doctors will be receiving bonuses for the services they provide, which include pediatricians receiving a $400 bonus for every child vaccinated by 2 years. The only medical exemption would be a previous anaphylactic reaction. http://whale.to/c/2016-BCN-BCBSM-Incentive-Program-Booklet.pdf

          I already linked the Calif Healthline interview with California Medical Assoc. where the spokesperson actually admitted that immunization rates will be directly tied to doctor’s pay.

    • Kathy says:

      Dr Pan got $95K in donations to his campaigns from companies that sell drugs, all kinds of drugs. That represented 1.7% of the total dollars donated to his campaigns, as of December 2015. That is nothing. The bought argument is silly.

    • Justthefacts says:

      Conspiracy!!!!

    • Must have? Then you must have evidence.

  2. Brian says:

    The anti-vaxxers failed in gaining support for their cause.
    The anti-vaxxers failed in votes.
    The anti-vaxxers failed in their referendum.
    The anti-vaxxers failed in their silly recall petition.
    The anti-vaxxers will fail in their silly lawsuits. (Similar cases have already been ruled on, so these will likely get thrown out very quickly)

    • bilingualmom says:

      The referendum against SB 277 garnered 228,000 signatures in 3 months across the state of California, and was a grass roots effort worked on by parent volunteers who stood outside grocery stores with their kids, or after work, or whenever they could squeeze in an hour or two… unlike most referendums where signatures are gathered by paid signature gatherers. And all this was accomplished while there was a complete media blackout on the referendum, it was just word of mouth. Something historic was happening across our state, and no TV news program (whose biggest advertisers are pharmaceutical companies) would touch it. Unfortunately, the referendum did not get the necessary 366,000 signatures under those conditions. By the way, nobody I know is an “anti-vaxxer”. That term is used by uninformed people who seem to think that because a parent wants to have some control over medical decisions for his/her own child, because a parent has safety concerns about what ultimately is a medical intervention that comes with some risk, or because a parent has a child who experienced a severe adverse reaction to a vaccine (hint: it isn’t 1 in a million, that’s a bunch of baloney), that somehow a person who speaks up about said concerns publicly is anti-science, anti-climate change, and bat crazy. That is what is truly silly!

      • Brian says:

        I define “anti-vaxxer” as someone who spreads false information to vilify vaccination.

        By this definition, you and several of the anti-SB277 crowd qualify. Want examples?

        • bilingualmom says:

          Feel free, in fact please do. It would be funny to see you try to prove that any of what I said above is false information. You don’t get to make up things that you think someone who is against SB 277 thinks, you have to refute any of the statements made above.

          But I most likely won’t respond to your silliness as I have other things to do. I’ve already said what I had to say, and it really wasn’t for your benefit.

          • Brian says:

            Why do anti-vaxxers lie so much?

            Let’s look at bilingualmom’s post in detail.

            “The referendum against SB 277 garnered 228,000 signatures”
            Possibly true, but note that this is
            – less than 1% of California’s population
            – is not an official tally, but rather an “internal count” by the signature gatherers themselves. The number wasn’t even high enough to be officially counted
            – because it wasn’t counted, the signatures were not verified to be valid. The number of valid signatures might be much lower

            “unlike most referendums where signatures are gathered by paid signature gatherers”
            Hmmm… Tim Donnelly set up a gofundme account to hire paid SB277 referendum signature gatherers. He claimed to bring in over one hundred thousand dollars.

            “And all this was accomplished while there was a complete media blackout… no TV news program… would touch it.”
            With just a few button clicks, I was able to find hundreds of TV, radio, and print archives of the media covering the referendum. The funny thing is – you commented on many of these news articles yourself, so you can’t pretend they don’t exist.

            “By the way, nobody I know is an “anti-vaxxer”.”
            Look in the mirror.

            Again, why do anti-vaxxers lie so much?

          • bilingualmom says:

            While it is true that the signatures were not verified since it did not get to that step in the process, that does not change the fact that 228,000 signatures were, in fact, gathered by parent volunteers across the state. What percent of the population that represents is irrelevant, as all referendums that qualify for the ballot are signed by a similarly small percentage of Californians. And again, this was done by parent VOLUNTEERS, so it is pretty darn impressive.

            The signatures had to be turned in to each county’s voter administration, and my understanding was that each county (in addition to the volunteers’ internal counts) gave a specific count. At the end of the referendum, we saw an official list of how many signatures came from each county, and the total signature count was on the Secretary of State’s website on referendums. However, they no longer have that information up. I have put in a call to the Elections Division to find out if that information is still publicly available.

            Yes, Tim Donnelly set up a GoFundMe account towards the end of the referendum to get help, as I assume he finally realized the job was overwhelming to us volunteers. That was one of the questions many of us involved had, why didn’t we do that earlier? Then again, the timeline was tight (90 days… the same as for any referendum), fundraising takes time, and maybe the people leading us didn’t realize the magnitude of the job. This was a brand new undertaking to most of our leaders (maybe not Tim Donnelly, who came from the political arena, but certainly to everyone else). I sincerely doubt, though, that us parents raised $100,000. As far as I know, maybe the last two weeks there were some paid signature gatherers who were gathering signatures for other referendums and got some signatures for us too. However, a few signatures that were a drop in the bucket does not change the fact that this was a grass roots, volunteer effort. You can try to distort it all you want, but those are the facts, Brian.

            Please put a link to those many TV news programs that gave coverage of the referendum…. because I did a google search of “Senate Bill 277” and “referendum” and came up with none. And coverage after the fact, reporting the results of the referendum, obviously does not count. Nor does general TV news coverage about the hundreds of people protesting the hearings for SB 277 in our state capitol, which did happen occasionally but was very sparse. I said the REFERENDUM. I also said TV NEWS coverage, not articles on the internet that most people never even read.

            And continuing to call someone an “antivaxxer”, even though I have made it clear that I do not appreciate that label nor is it at all accurate, just shows that you are a bully.

          • Brian says:

            If you don’t like being called an anti-vaxxer, then I recommend you stop lying to vilify vaccination. It’s your choice.

          • kfunk937 says:

            Couldn’t stick the flounce, eh?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Ouch!

        • Mansour Alihosseini says:

          If we choose not to vaccinate does not mean that we don’t want you vaccinate. You can vax as much as you desire and we are not anti that. We just don’t like people like you enforce their opinion on us.

          • Brian says:

            If your choice not to vaccinate only affected yourself, then I wouldn’t care.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            Why you are provax right! wait a minute I guess those cocktail doesn’t work that’s make you worry?!

          • Zezinik says:

            Everyone’s choices affect everyones and everyone doesn’t understand that so everyone is at a disadvantage of we don’t all cooperate and educate ourselves and families to change the mandates and open our eyes before its too late. Mandatory Vaccination is tyranny. Its generational corrupting our DNA and too many people are asleep about the truth of the science.

          • Universal widespread scientific fraud can be empirically demonstrated.

            Bob will demonstrate for me.

            Here’s what Bob needs to do:

            1)Go search through the literature and make a list of all the studies he claims are fraudulent.

            2)Come up with a sample size of all the studies he claims are fraudulent.

            3)Hire some independent scientists – ensuring he is careful to keep them in the dark about who they are hired by.

            4)Have the scientists meticulously replicate the sample size. If data has been fraudulently fudged, you can prove it by following the same methodology and study design – that’s what science *does*.

            Put up or shut up.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            I don’t want you to drive because your driving could lead to a fatal accident and if you only get hurt I don’t care but most likely you will hurt others! Correct me if I’m wrong

          • “I don’t want you to drive drunk because your driving could lead to a fatal accident and if you only get hurt I don’t care but most likely you will hurt others! Correct me if I’m wrong.”

            Would be closer. After all, it’s exactly the same entities that advise against drunk driving and advise vaccination refusal is dangerous to other people.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            you better read what I wrote before commenting.
            Did I mention drunk driving?! I guess not, I was talking driving in general under influence or not, accidents happen in both ways.

          • I read what you wrote – I also read what Brian wrote – and I’m telling you what you SHOULD have wrote in order to be closer to Brian’s point.

            “as talking driving in general under influence or not, accidents happen in both ways.” Indeed, they do happen both ways. In fact, did you know that most drivers who get into fatal accidents are sober at the time? Now that you do, do you think this makes it safer to drive drunk?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            She added the word “drunk” into your comment to make it accurately reflect the equivalent view of an antivaxer.

          • Indeed! And Mansour proceeded to prove my point by telling me that “accidents can happen either way” – of course, so can diseases.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Sniff… I really liked the OOPIT moniker….

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Me, too! Watch Grace get on your case for changing your nym, “Shill”. She still bangs away about mine.

          • You won’t mind if I drive drunk then, right? Since I’m not asking you to drive sober and you can drive sober as much you like.

            As for opinion…you think this is just my opinion? It’s one backed by EVERY MAJOR HEALTH ORG in the world – is yours?

      • You’re right – it isn’t 1 in a million – that is a bunch of baloney! More accuratley, it’s more like 0.71 in a million.

        If you have valid concerns, then you’ll be able to show us your research, right? Research does not mean websites. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f86156b8a988b560ff5a1204d1fc735e469bb6e8cc204001a929e7a7e960e6af.png

        • bilingualmom says:

          This will be my one and only reply to you, since I know that I am wasting my time. All you have to do is look at the CDC web site where they admit 1 in 14,000 have seizures after the DTaP vaccination. Now that they use the DTaP, they admit that 1 in 1750 had seizures after the DTP (the previous version), but when it was in use our government vigorously denied that any harm was being done, despite the pressure of the thousands of parents raising their voices about the neurological harm their children were suffering.

          The CDC calls seizures after the DTaP a “moderate problem”, although as the mother of a child who started having seizures after this vaccine and who now takes antiseizure medications twice a day, I would beg to differ. It is interesting that they “know” it is 1 in 14,000 when most adverse reactions aren’t even reported, so I suspect the actual number is higher. However, it is clear it is not 1 in a million kids. And this is only one possible serious adverse reaction after a vaccine, there are many other types of reactions.

          Well, I’m off to take my fully vaccinated child and mostly unvaccinated child (the one who nearly died after the DTaP) out into the community again to enjoy what is left of the afternoon. Because the children who have experienced adverse reactions to vaccines, while now excluded from school in many cases, are still a part of the community and at the library, the pool, the grocery store, church, etc. Of course, my mostly unvaccinated child isn’t spreading germs anymore than my vaccinated child is, but some people prefer to stay ignorant on this topic. Have a great day!

          • So…you know the CDC don’t count seizures as a serious problem since they’re counted as a moderate problem and yet you’re surprised it’s not counted in the figures as the 1 in a million for serious problems? Why?

            As for your youngest child, what vaccine injury did they have and how did you factually establish it was a caused by the vaccines? I trust it is on some basis other than the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

            “Of course, my mostly unvaccinated child isn’t spreading germs anymore than my vaccinated child is, but some people prefer to stay ignorant on this topic.” In the same way that a drunk driver who hasn’t had an accident is no more causing deaths than a sober driver who hasn’t had an accident, sure. Just out of curiosity; Did it ever occur to you that you might be the ignorant one?

            Have you compared the seizure chance from the vaccine to the seizure chance from the disease? I’m guessing not.

    • Stanley says:

      But the anti-vaxxers have the scientific facts:
      Chen et al, Measles antibody: reevaluation of protective titershttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2230231
      reported on data from a measles outbreak that came just after a school blood drive. So they had before and after titer information on the students. They observed that 7 out of 8 donors with titers below 120 got clinical measles, compared with none having titer above 120. So a titer of 120 appears to protect against getting clinical measles. However, 70% of donors with titers between 120 and 1050 reported symptoms without getting the rash, as did 30% of donors with titers above 1050, and about 70% of patients in the 120-1050 group also had their titers go up by a factor of more than 4, indicating that they had had a measles virus infection, even though short of clinical measles. So the conclusion: below 120, vulnerable to measles. Above 120, won’t get clinical measles, but may get ill without rash and become contagious for measles.
      What this means is that 70% OF THE VACCINATED PEOPLE WILL BE CARRIERS WHEN EXPOSED TO MEASLES. Since they are going around, they are spreading it, while the sick vaccinated people are not.

      • Brian says:

        Your ability to copy/paste from anti-vaccine conspiracy websites, without the ability to actually understand scientific papers, has been noted.

        • Zezinik says:

          Thats not a conspiracy site that site is nationally recognized and takes no sides just facts and studies… You’re conspiracy of believing that we are all just copying and pasting has been noted. We have live facts and testimonials and experiences that prove that vaccine injury is not rare and that vaccines are not safe. Do your own balanced research.

          • Brian says:

            It’s very easy to tell if you’re copy/pasting.

            All I have to do is google search a few of your sentences verbatim, and I can easily see if the words have been directly lifted from an anti-vaccine article or blog.

            Stanley’s entire comment, which misinterprets a cherry-picked article, is taken word-for-word from an anti-vaccine blog. No original thought whatsoever.

            And you do realize that anecdotes aren’t evidence, right?

          • Reality022 says:

            Of course it’s taken “word-for-word from an anti-vaccine blog”. The anti-vaccinationists couldn’t post if their leaders didn’t tell them what to think. You’re not dealing with the brightest bulbs on the tree.
            I can hear the “Baaaa!!!!”-ing from here.

        • Stanley says:

          Really, did you notice that this is from the National Institute of Health.
          OK genius, since you are so smart, then show me where I am wrong. I don’t expect a reply, as you are so close minded, that you didn’t even check the link to see that this is from a medical professional resource cite and that I cut and pasted the abstract.

      • Reality022 says:

        All this proves is you don’t understand vaccines, vaccination, the immune system, and the infectious disease process.
        Your conclusion is completely wrong due to this ignorance.

        Leave the science to people who graduated 5th grade, wouldya’?

        • Stanley says:

          I sure won’t leave the science to you anymore. I gave you the article and you have no clue what it means.
          As far as education, I have more than you will ever have and that includes doctoral level course in immunology and microbiology. So go back to 6th grade and pass it this time.

          • Reality022 says:

            You said in your earlier post, “Above 120, won’t get clinical measles, but may get ill without rash and become contagious for measles.
            Do you have any evidence for your statement that subclinical cases are infectious or is it just a conclusion you pulled from your colon?

            It helps if you actually investigate the subject instead of repeating the same study over and over again.

            You’ll find scientists have actually considered this and guess what?:
            ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112320/
            “Subclinical measles is defined as a 4-fold rise in measles virus-specific IgG antibodies following exposure to wild-type measles virus in an asymptomatic individual, presumably with some prior measles immunity. Subclinical infection may be important in boosting protective antibody concentrations in children with waning immunity [30] but raises a concern that persons with incomplete immunity and subclinical infection may be capable of transmitting measles virus [31]. In an investigation of potential measles virus shedding from persons with subclinical infection, measles virus was not detected by culture or reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction from any of 133 contacts of 6 subclinical cases with laboratory-confirmed measles [32]. Whether partially immune individuals with subclinical infection can sustain measles virus transmission in the absence of clinical cases is unlikely.

            “Thus, waning immunity is unlikely to be a biological barrier to measles eradication.”
            Subclinical measles just doesn’t seem to transmit measles disease.
            Fancy that.

            If subclinical cases were contagious we wouldn’t have been able to eliminate measles from the USA with the vaccine… but we did, didn’t we?:
            Modeling the Impact of Subclinical Measles Transmission in Vaccinated Populations with Waning Immunity
            Joel Mossong et al.
            Am J Epidemiol. 1999 Dec 1;150(11):1238-49.
            aje(dot)oxfordjournals(dot)org/content/150/11/1238.full.pdf

            .
            Can you think of any other disease where antibody boosting from endemic wild disease is known?
            How about chickenpox and the boosting children give to elders that has suppressed shingles cases but now is no longer available so we use a shingles vaccine? Did those grannies and granddads, having subclinical chickenpox thanks to their grandchildren, infect every susceptible child with whom they came into contact?
            No? Gee – can you see a parallel?

            .
            One of my responses to the idiotic kindergarten question from the anti-vaccine cultists – “If vaccines work then why are you worried about my unvaxxed kid?” – is:
            “While I am immune, I don’t particularly appreciate being infected by wild vaccine-preventable viruses just to test my immune system for the fun of it.”

            .
            You may want to go back to podiatry and massage therapy since your “research” abilities seem to be subclinical.

          • Stanley says:

            Here is a study that shows that there is shedding associated with the measles vaccine:
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/
            They are contagious, but since the measles is attenuated, it is a weaker virus, hence a normal immune system can fight it off. The argument that I see for the reason that all people should be immunized is to protect the individuals that cannot take the vaccine because their immune systems are too weak.
            Go back to your drug companies and get a response to this.

          • Reality022 says:

            Stanley, your link is broken but I assume you are trying to point me to the same link you gave to Mike Stevens above:
            cid(dot)oxfordjournals(dot)org/content/early/2014/02/27/cid.ciu105
            The PubMed version – ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/pubmed/24585562

            This 2011 case report (not a “study”) is only noteworthy because it is documenting the first time in history that a fully vaccinated person had 2ndary vaccine failure (and you obviously don’t even know what that means) and transmitted the wild virus to others.
            She caught and transmitted the wild, virulent measles virus contrary to your illiterate interpretation of the paper that it – “shows that there is shedding associated with the measles vaccine” (smfh)

            Try these blunt statements from the paper:
            Quoting the pubmed version: BACKGROUND: Measles may occur among vaccinated individuals, but secondary transmission from such individuals has not been documented.”
            CONCLUSIONS: This is the first report of measles transmission from a twice-vaccinated individual with documented secondary vaccine failure.”

            For the functionally illiterate (such as Stanley) – this states that while successfully vaccinated individuals are known to contract wild measles, transmission from these people to others has never been documented.
            This case report documents the transmission of wild measles (to 4 others) from a person who experienced 2ndary vaccine failure and caught wild measles.
            That is the sole reason for this report – The occurrence was so unusual that this first-time event warranted a published article.
            Very mundane.

            Stanley,
            This is the second time you have completely misinterpreted and misunderstood a science article. Considering you’ve only cited 2 articles you seem to have a 100% reading comprehension failure rate for science articles.
            Not a very good record for someone strutting about with chest puffed out because he has “more [education] than you will ever have and that includes doctoral level course in immunology and microbiology.”
            (snicker)

            Reading is Fundamental.
            I recommend a remedial reading class and maybe checking with rif(dot)org/

            Readers, this demonstrates why Andrew Lazarus’ catch-phrase must be in mind at all times when reading BS from anti-vaccine cultists:
            “Nothing antivaxers say can be taken at face value. Everything must be checked.” — Andrew Lazarus

            BTW – for those interested:
            – Primary vaccine failure = the person gets vaccinated but for some reason does not mount an immune response (“vaccine didn’t take”) and is, therefore, vulnerable to infection.
            – Secondary vaccine failure = the person gets vaccinated and does have an immune system response (“vaccine took”) which at a later date fails for some reason leaving the person vulnerable to infection.

          • And your evidence that people here are connected with drug companies would be what, exactly? Be specific.

            I mean, you do actually have some, right?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fc8d4e20da0f74b4b662855fd4543bb4d117db7885cd5b67fa28a3e9944ca748.jpg

      • Mike Stevens says:

        You have “doctoral level course in immunology and microbiology”?
        …Seriously?
        And you come up with the above misinterpretation of research into antibody titres, imposing your own invalid conclusions to the data?

        Which diploma mill did you buy your doctorate at?

        • Stanley says:

          Here is a study that shows that there is shedding associated with the measles vaccine:
          http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/02/27/cid.ciu105
          They are contagious, but since the measles is attenuated, it is a weaker virus, hence a normal immune system can fight it off. The argument that I see for the reason that all people should be immunized is to protect the individuals that cannot take the vaccine because their immune systems are too weak.
          Go back to your drug companies and get a response to this.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            “Here is a study that shows that there is shedding associated with the measles vaccine:”
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/02/27/cid.ciu105

            Stanley, usually I go easy on antivaxers who display ignorance about clinical/scientific studies. I do understand they mostly have no medical background, and have likely been duped by antivax propaganda sources into believing the nonsense they subsequently parrot.

            However, you have explicitly claimed to have doctoral level training in immunology and microbiology. Clearly that is utter BS, so I am going to give you both barrels.

            The study you cite has absolutely NOTHING to do with “shedding”.

            It describes the previously unknown event of an acute attack of measles in a fully vaccinated 22 year old individual who had received MMR vaccine 19 years earlier. Four out of the 88 contacts this person had developed measles.

            This has nothing to do with “shedding”, which is the phenomenon where live, vaccine strain virus may transiently be detected or isolated in the vaccinated individual in the first few days or weeks following vaccination.

            This can happen with some live virus vaccines, such as chickenpox. It is of little consequence unless the person exposed to the shed virus is severely immunosuppressed, in which case they may show signs of disease similar to the wild-type, natural viral infection. However, as this is extremely rare, then the “worst” that shedding will do is to expose people to vaccine virus which will either “vaccinate” them, or serve as a booster if they are already vaccinated. No harm, just benefit.

      • No, it doesn’t.

        You’ve forgotten to take into account the distribution in the population.

      • Sonja Henie says:

        Link wouldn’t work.

    • spymon74666 says:

      Brian: For the record, of the three branches of government, the judicial system is the one that protects the minority from the majority trying to enforce illegal laws. In California, Prop 8 (defining marriage as between a man and a woman) was voted in, but later overturned in the courts. Don’t be too sure of yourself just yet…and the only case that was ruled on was back in the early 1900’s, where the result was a fine for people who failed to vaccinate.

      • Sonja Henie says:

        Oh, no that wasn’t the only case. Why do you guys believe all this woo-woo that your woo sources tell you? Aren’t any of you intelligent enough to check things out? Jacobson vs Mass (1905) was just upheld LAST YEAR!
        http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1508701?query=TOC&
        “In 1890, the Supreme Court of California upheld a state law requiring vaccination to attend school (Abeel v. Clark). Fifteen years later in Jacobson v. Massachusetts,the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a claim that a Massachusetts vaccination mandate not linked to school entry violated the
        constitutional right to due process of law. Later, the Court applied Jacobson in Zucht v. King (1922) to reject a challenge to school-entry mandates in Texas.

        Despite these precedents, SB 277 challengers are apt to argue that the lack of a religious exemption violates their First Amendment right to free exercise of religion. Although individuals are generally permitted to decline medical treatment when it conflicts with their religious beliefs, the First Amendment does not require the state to exempt believers from generally applicable laws that protect the health of others. The U.S. Supreme Court has never directly evaluated a First Amendment claim regarding vaccination, but it has written in the contextof other parental-rights claims that religious freedom “does not
        include liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable
        disease” (Prince v. Massachusetts, 1944). More recently, two
        appellate courts concluded that the First Amendment does not require
        religious exemptions for vaccination mandates (Phillips v. City of New York, 2nd Cir., 2015; Workman v. Mingo Cnty Bd. of Educ.,4th Cir., 2011). Somewhat paradoxically, the strongest constitutional arguments may arise in states that allow exemptions for religious but not secular reasons. Mississippi’s Supreme Court ruled that such a distinction violated the U.S. Constitution’s Equal Protection Clause by favoring religious over philosophical objectors (Brown v. Stone, 1979).”

        • Reality022 says:

          Very, very good, Sonja.
          Have you been going to a WalDorit School at night? (snicker)

          • John smith says:

            Do old retirees like you and that slum Sonja have anything better ro do with your time? I mean shouldn’t you two be doing something constructive before you are diagnosed with alzheimers and put in a nursing home in a year? You people are truly garbage and pathetic

  3. CharliePeters says:

    Trump Loves GMO Corn Mandate

  4. no1uknow1 says:

    So if 92% is required for herd immunity, how come the kindergartens with 77% aren’t breaking out left and right? Hmmm

    • Zezinik says:

      They are.

      • no1uknow1 says:

        and the news is covering it up? Keep dreaming! The only outbreaks are from vaccine failures (mumps at Harvard, pertussis anywhere the vaccine is used)

        • Mike Stevens says:

          Your idea of a “vaccine failure” is a scenario where as few as 1% of a vaccinated population get mumps following exposure.

          Food for thought:
          In an unvaccinated population, the number in the outbreak would be more than 90%.
          You’d regard that as “success” of some soret, no doubt.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            you think “sort” is spelled “soret”? OMG why am i even talking to such a moron.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Well, why are you even talking to such a moron?

            PS: No, I don’t think “sort” is spelled “soret”. That was a simple keyboard typo where I hit two keys not one.
            This is in contradistinction to your ignorant grammatical errors, where you confuse “you’re” and “your”, and your inability to spell the name of the diseases you pretend to know about (eg Diphtheria).

            PPS: I am not expecting a reply, seeing as how you don’t intend to speak to “morons”.

    • Kathy says:

      They are tinderboxes waiting to be lit. That is the point.

    • Sigh. Herd immunity depends on the R0 number which you would know if you had bothered to get informed.

      • no1uknow1 says:

        OH! So it’s not the same number (95%) for every disease as we’ve been led to believe ad infinitum? What’s the R0 for tetanus?

        • I am not responsible for what you were led to believe or chose to believe. The R0 number is a calculation for herd immunity and applies to communicable diseases, which you would know if you had done any research on the subject. Had you bothered to get informed, then you would know that that does not describe tetanus and the reason the DTap/Tdap is mandated (depending on age) is for the Diptheria and Pertussis components which *are* communicable.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            Had you bothered to get informed, you’d know that, regardless of what it’s combined with, tetanus vaccine is specifically mandated by the state of California for a public education, as is Hepatitis B. Both non-communicable diseases (in a typical classroom setting). What “herd” are they trying to protect?

          • Yes, tetanus is mandated by the state of California in order to get a public schooling. Again, online schools exist – public education. This is because it’s combined with D&P protection – if they stop mandating tetanus vaccine de jure, you would still have to de facto get the tetanus protection as a consequence of SB277 mandating Diptheria and Pertussis. Do keep up.

            As for Hep B, it is communicable in a classroom setting – it’s transmitted by bodily fluids and it’s a relatively tough virus – it can survive on one drop of blood for a week. Again, keep up.

            Which again, you’d know this if you’d looked at … oh, I don’t know….any major health org in the world’s site.

            What herd are they trying to protect? Had you bothered to read the actual text of SB277 (No, what Natural News et al says it says is not the same thing), you would know the answer to this already.

  5. Sibylrose says:

    Vaccines have been mandated for decades; removing personal belief or religious exemptions is not about health or even about vaccines. It is about allowing the government to dictate that we must allow whatever they say into our and our children’s bodies. That is medical tyranny, assault and a very high violation of freedom and autonomy. It is about really bad people with their own goals.

    • kfunk937 says:

      Vaccines have been mandated for decades; removing personal belief or religious exemptions is

      to assure optimal community health. Period, stop, end all. There, fixed that for you. Plus the laws have been upheld constitutonaly and they’ve been mandated (which does not mean someone is coming into your house to hold anyone down…that’s just stupid) for ages.

      The courts don’t want to adjudicate whether your bullsh!t belief qualifies as a religious belief (and no major religions reject vaccination for any reason) rather than a cult.Trust me, anti-vaccination is a cult.

  6. Marc says:

    Don’t like the law? Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. I’ll sleep easier at night knowing my child is safe.

    • no1uknow1 says:

      your child is far more endangered by motor vehicles than by vaccine-resistant families. Sleep well at night knowing you support government telling you what to do with your and your kids’ bodies, based on whatever they deem to be “science”

      • Brian says:

        “your child is far more endangered by motor vehicles than by vaccine-resistant families.”

        This is true, which is why the state mandates drivers’ licenses, child car seats, etc.

        When parents stubbornly refuse to vaccinate their children, it’s kind of like parents stubbornly refusing to have their children wear seat belts in a car.

        • no1uknow1 says:

          Actually it’s not like that at all. Because despite those laws, licenses and car seats, little kids are still dying in car wrecks at literally hundreds of thousands of times the rate they’re dying of VPIs in this country. Your analogy is so ridiculously far off it’s like setting sail for London and landing on the moon.

          • Brian says:

            “hundreds of thousands of times the rate they’re dying of VPIs in this country”

            That’s a bit of an exaggeration in scale*, but the number of VPD deaths is low precisely because the vast majority of people vaccinate. If more people listen to the anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists, and stop vaccinating, the death toll could rise by orders of magnitude!

            Thanks for proving my point!

            *In the U.S., I found the number of of child (below 13) passenger deaths to be 500-1000 children per year. The number of VPD deaths is still much higher than it needs to be, and if you include influenza deaths, the death rate from infants and toddlers isn’t much different. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/e/reported-cases.pdf

          • no1uknow1 says:

            WRONG – number of deaths from VPIs BEFORE VACCINES were lower than number of vehicular deaths TODAY. You are a pro-vax troll, thanks for proving my point!

          • Brian says:

            “number of deaths BEFORE VACCINES were lower than number of vehicular deaths TODAY.”

            Well, that statement is proven false with a single vaccine preventable disease- smallpox.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            Since the advent of the automobile, more Americans die from car crashes in a month, than died from smallpox during any year. You do know why they stopped using smallpox vaccine, right Brian?

          • Brian says:

            “You do know why they stopped using smallpox vaccine, right Brian?”

            Well, the main reason was that, thanks to worldwide vaccination campaigns, the disease has been completely eliminated from the world! There’s no need to vaccinate against it anymore!

            Hopefully we’ll be able to do the same with polio and measles soon.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            smallpox vaccination was stopped because it was too dangerous and causing too many side effects. smallpox was eradicated with perhaps only 10% of the global population vaccinated. To think that the same applies to measles is the height of ignorance. Vaccinationists have predicted the end of measles would come by 1970, and have continued to move the goal posts as they continue to fail decade after decade. Now they scapegoat anti-vaxxers for their own failure. Failure to meet their own naive predictions and failure to understand the nature of disease and immunity. You Brian are a failure.

          • kfunk937 says:

            Ring vaccination. Look it up.

          • Reality022 says:

            I don’t know where they get this “only 10% were vaccinated” trope. Must be NVdisIC or another of the anti-vax liars.
            As far as I know the US had essentially 100% smallpox vaccine coverage for decades.
            And, as you’ve noted, the strategy for eradication involved ring vaccination since uninfected populations didn’t need the vaccine so only outbreaks were vigorously attacked.

            Anti-vaxxers – getting it wrong for decades.

          • VikingAPRNCNP says:

            I was vaccinated against smallpox twice. Once as a young child and again 20 years later in boot camp. No reaction the second time. So much for waning immunity.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            I had to get a second smallpox vaccine dose before college. I got a tiny little “take”; it didn’t leave a scar.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I had three smallpox vaccinations, one was marked “take,” in my mother’s vaccination book. None left a scar, which might mean my immune system wasn’t strong enough to mount the energy to push the virus out through the skin, leaving a scar, but stayed within to damage me.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Oh, for God’s sake, cia! If it was marked “take”, it probably “took”.

          • Reality022 says:

            I still have my “pox” scar on my left shoulder but it is so faded with time that you can only make it out if I get a really deep tan which I like to avoid, not being a big fan of skin cancer (unlike Joe Merde-ola).

          • AutismDadd says:

            Meaning what?

          • Justthefacts says:

            For stupid troll AutismDadd, that means she was still immune 20 years later at boot camp.

            Go troll elsewhere

          • AutismDadd says:

            She didn’t say that and offered nothing but an opinion…zero credibility

          • Justthefacts says:

            Yes, she did and you can’t read.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Did I mention you have zero credibility?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Did I mention you are less than zero?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            It’s HE, not SHE.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Where’s you evidence then?

          • Justthefacts says:

            In Books and on the internet Troll. Try learning something on your owm

          • AutismDadd says:

            On my owm? Is that Spanish or something?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Still trolling nonsense?

          • AutismDadd says:

            Just pointing out how dense you are, and that what you preach comes from someone who can’t even spell

          • Justthefacts says:

            What you preach comes from a Troll who can’t think.

          • Ken S. says:

            Do you know how many smallpox cases there were in 1981?

          • VikingAPRNCNP says:

            Measles deaths have declined by 75% since 2000.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Where?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Worldwide, Troll.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Are you responding because you post under multiple names?

          • Justthefacts says:

            I’m responding so everyone doesn’t have to answer your troll questions and to apply your nametag -Troll.

          • AutismDadd says:

            So you are trolling

          • Justthefacts says:

            I’m pointing out the Troll – and that’s YOU.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Ever thought about growing up?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Ever though about spend time with your son and your family instead of Trolling?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            “more Americans die from car crashes in a month, than died from smallpox during any year.”

            3000 die from car crashes in 1 month.
            In the 20th Century, it is estimated between 300 and 500 million people died from smallpox. Even as late as 1967, 2 million died from smallpox.
            That’s 170,000 in a month.

            What is the bigger number, uknow0?
            3,000 or 170,000?
            Why are antivaxers so useless at math?

          • Ken S. says:

            Are you comparing American deaths to American deaths?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Ah…true, no, but then that was implied rather than explicitly stated I guess.
            So, US smallpox deaths during “any” year….
            How many native americans died from smallpox in one year?
            Pretty sure more than 3000.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            if you think 170,000 AMERICANS per month died from smallpox, your dumber than the average vaccine fan. If you don’t think 170,000 Americans per month died from smallpox, you didn’t understand my comment.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            And if you think “you’re” is spelled “your”, then you are dumber than the average antivaxer, which isn’t saying much.

            You hadn’t specifically said US smallpox deaths, but as I say below, even correcting for that I think you will find that the death toll in native americans exposed to smallpox would exceed 3000 per year.
            Even in the last century, the death toll from smallpox in 1902 was over 2500.
            http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209448

            Anyway, why focus on smallpox? Overall, counting ALL vaccine preventable diseases, there were tens of thousands of deaths each year prevaccine (see same source)

          • Leslie says:

            That same source lists 10,000 annual deaths from all VPD’s. Math lesson here 10,000 < 30,000. So @no1uknow1 is correct…Auto accidents have proven more deadly on an annual basis than VPD.

            Furthermore, deaths from those same diseases are currently in the single digits. So @no1uknow1 is also correct that US children have more chance of dying from auto accidents than from vaccine resistant families.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            “That same source lists 10,000 annual deaths from all VPD’s. Math lesson here 10,000 < 30,000. So @no1uknow1 is correct…Auto accidents have proven more deadly on an annual basis than VPD.
            Furthermore, deaths from those same diseases are currently in the single digits."

            In which crazy antivax universe is the argument that “Before vaccines, diseases killed 10,000 every year, but after vaccines nobody has died” seem like a good reason not to vaccinate your child?

            PS:
            1. If you total correctly, it’s more like 19,000 who died each year from vaccine preventable disease.
            2. His/your claims were variously:
            “children” who die in accidents (ie fewer than 1000 per year), and
            “the number who die in vehicle accidents in a month”, and
            “Hundreds of thousands of times” more die from vehicle accidents than the disease.

          • Leslie says:

            Are you seriously claiming that in the 20th century 170,000 Americans died monthly due to smallpox? You’re just making this stuff up aren’t you?

            Cuz this report shows that between 1900-1949 there were an average of 337 deaths per year, with the peak of 2510 deaths in 1902. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/DownloadImage.aspx?image=/data/Journals/JAMA/5245/joc70121t1.png&sec=25353578&ar=209448&sectionType=1&imagename=

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Yup. He said deaths in “any year”.
            Ergo >2500, as I said (1902).

          • Ron Roy says:

            Why do pro vaxers lie so much about statistics?

          • AutismDadd says:

            Part of the indoctrination

          • Justthefacts says:

            Part of your indoctrination to be a Troll?

          • AutismDadd says:

            No Shill, try to keep up

          • Justthefacts says:

            They don’t, anti-vaxxers are too stupid to understand the facts.

          • Ron Roy says:

            No they’re smart enough to see through you and your vaccine pushing mobsters.

          • Justthefacts says:

            As for being smart, you are the classic example.

            You believe in chemtrials.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Do you purposely say things to make yourself look ignorant? http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/

          • Justthefacts says:

            We can always count on setting your crazy off.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Yours is always on.

          • Justthefacts says:

            What was that about chemtrails again? Please continue…….

          • Ron Roy says:

            By Kilgoar, on July 11th, 2013

            According to Snowden, chemtrails are the only thing keeping the US from global warming incineration, but at what price?

            MOSCOW, Russia – Edward Snowden, the hacker who gained access to
            every secret corner of the Internet during his tenure at the NSA, has
            come forward with details of a classified project to alter the world’s
            climate. The shocking truth, as he says, is that chemtrails are part of a
            benevolent program aimed at countering global warming. By cooperating
            in secret with jet fuel manufacturers, government agents have carefully
            kept the massive chemtrail efforts completely under wraps. Snowden
            added, “I am only revealing this program because there is no oversight
            in the scientific community, no public discussion, and little concern
            for the side-effects which are well known only to a few privileged
            people interested in continuing the decades-long chemtrail program in
            secret.”

            Because climate change is a threat to U.S. agriculture, it has been
            labeled a national security issue. With the influence and cooperation of
            Monsanto, a secret Geoengineering lab dubbed Muad’Dib has
            been operating since the late 1960s, and the chemtrail program is often
            referred to by insiders as its “crown jewel.” Muad’Dib has aimed to
            protect North America’s climate at all costs – even if that means
            accelerating desertification in Sub-Saharan Africa or spreading trace
            amounts of carcinogens over lightly populated areas. Other side effects,
            which scientists at the secret Muad’Dib Geoengineering Lab have
            predicted, include droughts in the Amazon and powerful windstorms along
            the East Coast.

            Snowden shared decisive documents with The Internet Chronicle,
            but out of concern for national security, only his testimonial can be
            published. These documents contain references to scientists who would
            surely be targeted by foreign counterintelligence, and their knowledge
            is vital to short-term survival of the United States.

            Snowden said, “If this program were to stop, the scientists behind it
            strongly believe that within just one year the North American climate
            would spiral out of control, and crop failures would lead to a series of
            devastating famines that would quickly depopulate urban centers.”

            Because the program has been carried out on such a massive scale,
            skeptics might find Snowden’s story unbelievable. However, Snowden
            explained that the chemtrail program has been incredibly easy to hide,
            especially with the cooperation of jet fuel companies, a crucial part of
            the military-industrial complex. Snowden said, “The chemicals which are
            released by passenger airplanes have been covertly introduced as
            ‘additives,’ supposedly to improve efficiency. Only as the plane reaches
            cruising velocity does the heat and atmospheric pressure cause a
            chemical reaction that synthesizes the top secret carbon-trapping
            molecule. This process is imperfect, and many of the by-products are
            incredibly dangerous even in trace quantities. The most dangerous thing
            is that although chemtrails are keeping the climate of the U.S.
            reasonably stable, citizens are bombarded every day with an invisible
            rain of carbon-laden molecules, and the effect on health is totally
            unknown.”

          • Justthefacts says:

            You got powned. You are such a sucker. The story is from “The internet chronicle” which is a Satire site. IT WAS A JOKE!!

            http://chronicle.su/2013/07/11/snowden-uncovers-shocking-truth-behind-chemtrails/

            I liked this headline:

            “Putin officially endorses Trump, promises “big hacks”

            You have been have a foll of, literally……

            You really have no handle on reality.

          • JoeFarmer says:

            This guy is unbelievable!

          • Justthefacts says:

            Ron Roy is a full blown tin foil hat wing nut. He isn’t just anti-vaxx; he is anti-reality. Whenever you want to discredit him, just ask him about 9/11 and he’ll be happy to oblige.

          • Ron Roy says:

            I know I meant it as sarcasm not meant to be taken seriously. However I will post the truth later

          • Justthefacts says:

            Her, Ron, Are you pulling a Trump? Are you saying you didn’t mean it when you said what you meant?

            You got powned.

          • Ron Roy says:

            No however you and your cohorts get powned every day by the MEDICAL MAFIA’S denials and outright lies about vaccines.

          • Justthefacts says:

            At least we don’t read the internet chronicle and think it’s real.

            You are such a massive loser.

            Nice try deleting your comment. Its too late. You got powned by a joke site.

          • JoeFarmer says:

            Oh, this is beyond irony!

            You dolt, you quoted from a satire site! And thought it was real!

          • David says:

            Ron can’t hide. US government and big pharma can deliver whatever they want through Chem trails.

          • AutismDadd says:

            twistingthefacts again….a pure troll

          • Justthefacts says:

            except that Ron juts posted a story from a satire site abotu chem-trials proving to everyone that he, and you, are mindless conspiracy nuts cases.

            I proved a point. You are Trolling me.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Yawn…twistingfacts makes me yawn.

          • AutismDadd says:

            You mean the twistedfacts

          • Justthefacts says:

            Yes, you are also too stupid to twist the facts. You just Troll.

          • AutismDadd says:

            I feel a YAWN coming on

          • AutismDadd says:

            So you don’t deny it….thanks

          • Justthefacts says:

            I can’t deny you are stupid, ever.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Because they can and its mostly what they can manipulated to imply whatever they want. Or its because they are clueless

          • AutismDadd says:

            How bout guns in the USA how many deaths from this LEGAL product?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Yes you are right, Vaccines are far, far safer.

            Fail troll.

          • Brian says:

            Conspiracies, conspiracies!

          • Martin Matthews says:

            Make a point Brian! Since you just confirmed MY earlier point, that you’re sadly a head down compliant person – that’s cool, but don’t go trying to get others to concur with you so you can feel better about making clearly questionable choices. What do YOU see when you compare 1983 with 2016? Knowing that Vax are NOT tested with the rigor of Pharma drugs, and that this 2016 schedule itself has ZERO testing or assurance of safety? No conspiracies here, just information. What say you?http://thhe.austusmediallc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/cdc-vax-schedule-2016_mini.jpg

          • Brian says:

            Again, your ignorance of evidence and scientific studies do not make them magically disappear.

            Thanks for proving my point that anti-vax conspiracy theorists refuse to actknowledge the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Another one afraid of shots, also a lying liar. Vaccines are tested more rigorously than other meds.

          • I see you as lying. I’ve read the studies.

            As for more jabs – hooray! More diseases we can protect against!

            Also, please go read the actual text of SB277. Not what a site told you it said but the actual text.

            As for the jabs – did you know about this?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e32fb80eb31f8989ad8ca50cb98c72807396cadc97af325f4c7260e89da25da4.jpg

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fb9de24192eedd7100e12493cfc60be12d21eb717e6fc3eaad59cecc9d8d7e09.jpg

          • Reality022 says:

            I so love allusions to the childish and cheesy film targeted at adolescent boys that the anti-vaccine cultists and other loopy fringers constantly use – “Red Pill. Blue Pill.”
            The geriatric conspiracy loon, Jon Rappoport, is particularly enamoured with the concepts in The Matrix, demonstrating just how childish, ignorant and laughable his opinions are.

            Grow up, kids. It’s a cheesy movie. It’s about as deep as a kiddie pool.

          • kfunk937 says:

            Yeah, it weirds me out too ’cause it so often crosses into MRA territory. They luv themselves some redpill.

          • Reality022 says:

            Men’s Rights Activism?
            Ultra-loon Henry Makow, et al.?

            I sometimes wonder if the anti-HPV loons aren’t really just a committee from some misogynistic group determined to kill off women by any means necessary.

          • kfunk937 says:

            ‘Cause they can’t get dates, apparently. Mind you, I’m not entirely immune to their arguments about why being a man is sometimes difficult, e.g., custody wars or the burden of self-identifying as the sole provider. It’s the outliers that freak me out. How to self-identify as being a man (especially when one is young) is as difficult as how to be a woman: there’s a lot of wiggle-room in there.

          • Reality022 says:

            Well, if they stopped with the adolescent, pre-pubescent memes like “Red pill, Blue pill”, maybe they would sound like an adult male and not a creepy man-boy and then they could get dates.

            Running around bug-eyed and quoting Alex Jones’ conspiracy du-jour, etc. doesn’t seem to be a very good way to impress the girls.

          • kfunk937 says:

            I’m really trying here. It’s my thing to get inside the heads of folk I can’t imagine. Gimme a break?

            Not really. It’s just that I really attempt to torque myself to understand.

          • kfunk937 says:

            Not just women (12K US new cases and 4K US deaths annually) but also men, with twice that many cases of esophogeal and other cancers.

            Do we as a culture hate our kids enough to deprive them of some protection from this ubiquitous virus?

          • Leslie says:

            Brian is wrong and you are correct. This is a history of smallpox cases and deaths in the 20th century (pg 16). http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/bt/smallpox/who/red-book/9241561106_chp8.pdf.

            Variola Major was the more deadly version, but the highest # of U.S. deaths recorded in the 20th century was 1841. Death rates fell on their own BEFORE the mandatory vaccine case Jacobsen v Mass (1905). After mass vaccinations, however, smallpox then morphed into the less deadly Variola Minor.

            Auto accidents have been pretty consistent at about 30,000 deaths/year. In 2015, deaths rose to 38,300 “despite reports last year that found marked improvements in vehicle safety.” So, your right, in the U.S. children are more likely to die in auto accidents than from any disease ever, including smallpox.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Smallpox was not the only VPD parents worried about pre-vaccine. Diphtheria, 15,000 deaths alone in 1921, at a time when the population of the US was about 1/3 what it is today. http://www.cdc.gov/diphtheria/clinicians.html
            Pertussis, an average of ~4000 deaths/year pre-vaccine; polio, about 3000 deaths/year.
            http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209448

            Presumably you can add.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            4000 + 3000 + 15000 < 36,000
            Presumably you can't comprehend the rise and fall of diseases. If you cherry pick the most extreme year for any disease, rather than looking at how the numbers fell despite the complete absence of vaccines, you can pretend to have an argument.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            36,000 auto deaths with today’s population. In 1921 when there were 15,000 diphtheria deaths, the population of the US was 1/3 what it is now. 12,155 auto deaths, fewer than from diphtheria ALONE!
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

          • no1uknow1 says:

            And Sonja dear, what year did diptheria vaccine become available? Did the number of diptheria deaths stay at 15,000 every year until vaccine was invented?
            Perhaps you missed the point that I’m talking about car deaths TODAY. Obviously motor vehicle deaths were lower before motor vehicles were invented. The point has sailed far over your head.
            Car deaths today are higher than VPI deaths before vaccines. Not the maximum cherry picked year. But BEFORE diptheria vaccines, deaths had decreased dramatically, and you want to falsely give all the credit to vaccines.
            NO THANK YOU.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            “And Sonja dear, what year did diptheria vaccine become available?”
            1926.

            You can juggle numbers around to prove whatever you want. You might also learn to spell.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            juggle numbers? No. I made a factual statement which you ineptly tried to refute. I might also learn to spell? Going after spelling is a classic troll move. Even funnier, I haven’t misspelled a single word! you are a real piece of work. and by “work” i mean “excrement”.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            DIPHtheria, not DIPtheria. You, however, are a dip.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Amazing, the entrenched denial, despite the evidence being pushed right in the faces of these antivaxers.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            When did vaccine become available?
            Between 1923 and 1926 in the USA, and in 1940 in the UK.
            See what happened to the notifications following vaccine introduction. What caused the decline? Hand washing? If you think so, can you explain why did the US apparently “introduce” handwashing in the 1920s, but in the UK we waited until the 1940s?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1e0b945ea190cf8304425bed898688bafbed8b94f9cbd763307bbc6a36d2da57.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41457e0cfee489832a8f49d1344c318b4d4c7448a42456beb165561e24395124.jpg

          • Mike Stevens says:

            And remember he actually said “children” who had died in auto accidents.

            This is fewer than 700 kids under 12 years of age, and not 36,000.

            Talk about using the wrong comparator!

          • Leslie says:

            Please show the actual documented data showing how many of the 15,000 diphtheria deaths in that single year were children and how many were adults.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            So a quick recap.
            You claimed there were more deaths in children from automobile accidents a year (36,000) than there used to be for the vaccine-preventable infectious diseases.

            Here are your mistakes:

            1. The 36,000 number is for ALL accidents, not just children. There are fewer than 700 deaths in children under 12 yrs of age.

            2. If we backdate the relative numbers to 1921, the time prior to diphtheria vaccination, there would likely be fewer than 100 childhood vehicle accident deaths per year.

            3. In 1921, there were 15,000 diphtheria deaths. Diphtheria is typically a childhood disease, with the vast majority of cases (and deaths) occurring in kids. That’s why it’s called a “childhood disease”, after all.
            http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/963334-overview#a4

            Conclusion:
            Using data for just one single infectious disease, your presumption that there are more kids dying in vehicle accidents than there were deaths from infections has been comprehensively debunked.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            What vaccine-preventable disease saw numbers fall despite the complete absence of vaccines? Not diphtheria, not pertussis, not tetanus, not polio, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, rotavirus, Hib, pneumonia, meningitis or HPV.

            Measles, mumps, chickenpox, rotavirus, Hib and HPV were basically ubiquitous up until the introduction of the vaccines.

          • no1uknow1 says:

            you can’t even research properly.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You have no answer to the question.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            ???

          • Leslie says:

            Diphtheria did see the numbers fall before the vaccine that was developed in 1926. The decline was occurring even prior to the Diphtheria Anti-toxin. (pg 4) http://www.publichealthreports.org/userfiles/121_SUP-HC/121SUP206.pdf

            It was the anti-toxin (given like antibiotics) that is credited as significantly reducing the # of deaths. In fact, protocol today is anti-toxin combined with antibiotics.

            You’re seriously including HPV in that group. According to the CDC, HPV clears on its own in 95% of cases. There is basically one recent study claiming that the vaccine has reduced HPV, but that’s suspicious since there has not been a huge uptake of the vaccine over a long time period to verify that result.

            Pertussis vaccine failure is actually behind the increases in the VPD we are seeing today. It is shown to wane significantly after the 1st year and be ineffective (no antibodies to the disease) after 3-5 years.

            But the question is…which VPD has had an annual mortality rate of 3000/100,000 like auto accidents?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You’re full of it, Leslie. There were 15,000 deaths from diphtheria in 1921, five years before the vaccine. The anti-toxin came out in 1894. It helped, but it didn’t do anything to prevent one from getting the disease in the first place. It didn’t help that little boy in Spain last summer.
            http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/29/inenglish/1435559306_461811.html

            Nearly every sexually active person gets an HPV infection. Yes, 90-95% of them clear on their own. (I’ve seen different figures.) Since everyone gets it, that leaves a lot of cases uncleared. And still today, about 12,000 women get diagnosed with cervical cancer and 1/3 of them die from it. Sucks to be them, huh? They were supposed to “clear” those infections, no? Here’s an analogy that will go totally over your head, but might help the lurkers:

            About 72% of childhood polio patients have no symptoms at all. About 24% of childhood cases have minor, non-specific symptoms. Some say “flu-like symptoms”, e.g. headache, body aches. That’s 96%. 1-5% have nonparalytic aseptic meningitis (symptoms of stiffness of the neck,
            back, and/or legs), usually following several days after a prodrome
            similar to that of minor illness (feeling tired, etc.) Increased or abnormal sensations
            can also occur. Typically these symptoms will last from 2 to 10 days,
            followed by complete recovery. Fewer than 1% get paralysis, and fewer yet have permanent paralysis. Even fewer die. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html Further, unlike HPV, not everyone got polio. Yet, polio was one of the most feared diseases in the US pre-vaccine, perhaps even THE most feared disease in the 1940s and 50s. Even today, parents who selectively vax and/or delay some vaccines want polio vaccine ASAP. Why? People fear paralysis. Yet far fewer got paralyzed than got infected, just like with HPV.

            Pertussis? See “On the Fence About Vaccines” on Facebook for a nice graphic. The unvaxed are still 10X more likely to get pertussis than the vaccinated, and most get much more severe disease. You give no data for your drivel about pertussis vaccine. In point of fact, the DTaP (higher dose version) is still 70% effective five years after the last dose. Tdap (lower dose) is 75% effective after 4 years.
            http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/pregnant/mom/vacc-effectiveness.html

            Why do you consider your question THE question?

          • Leslie says:

            Pertussis experts Dr. Klein, Dr. Reingold, and Dr. Cherry are honest about the lack of effectiveness of the whooping cough vaccine. It’s the constant false argument that anti-vaxxers are behind the upswing in pertussis & likening it to polio which encourages people to distrust the medical professsion. Direct quotes from Dr. Nicola Klein, co-director of Kaiser’s vaccine center: http://ww2.kqed.org/stateofhealth/2016/02/04/whooping-cough-booster-protection-fades-quickly-kaiser-study-shows/

            “What we found was the Tdap vaccine offers moderate protection in the first year but then that rapidly decreased over the next four years, so by the time we were at four years after vaccination, it was down to nine percent.”

            “Unfortunately, routine vaccination of 11- and 12-year-olds does not appear to be preventing outbreaks.”

            Klein calls it a “mild to moderate disease…It’s not a deadly disease, but it is an impact on kids’ lives.”

            As for the immunocompromised argument Pan always brings up: we have always had immunocompromised individuals in the community since the 1970’s & early 1980’s when we had far fewer vaccines. It’s just suspicious that in the 21st century they are more susceptible to diseases that Big Pharma now has vaccines for, which are being mandated by the government.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You’re talking about the lower-strength pertussis vaccine, not the one children get.

          • Leslie says:

            The issue is with the aPertussis portion, which everyone now gets.

            “In the late 1990s, a new version of the whooping cough vaccine was introduced. The big benefit was that it had fewer side effects. But in the years since, evidence has been mounting that this newer vaccine loses its effectiveness — and fast.

            There have been two statewide whooping cough — also called pertussis — epidemics in recent years. The first was in 2010, the second in 2014, which was the first where all adolescents had received only the newer pertussis vaccine, the “acellular pertussis” vaccine: five doses by age 6, plus the booster before 7th grade. The 2014 epidemic was even more severe than the one in 2010.”

          • Sonja Henie says:

            It’s not ePertussis, it’s aPertussis, a little detail, but remember what Twain said: “It is better to keep your mouth (keypad) shut and be thought a fool than to (post) and remove all doubt”. This is the second time in as many minutes that I’ve caught you in something you obviously have no knowledge of. The “a” stands for “acellular”. A “P” means a large dose, and a “p” means a smaller dose. Older kids and adults react badly to full-strength pertussis. But I’m sure you knew that.

          • Leslie says:

            You need glasses & some Humble Pie…I wrote aPertussis. So you can stick your condescending diatribe where the sun don’t shine.

            It’s not the strength of it that’s the problem. It’s the acellular part whether it’s a large P or small p. The whole cell Pertussis was more effective, but had more side effects. So I caught you in something you apparently have no knowledge of.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Well, OK, maybe I did see an “e” where there was an “a”, my apologies. However, it is true that a small “p” denotes a smaller does than a “P”. And yes, Miss Smarta**, I did know that about the whole cell pertussis vaccine. You know what happens when you ass*u*me. Sadly, it was the anit-vaxers that screeched and hollered so much about the DTwP that we switched to acellular.

          • Ken S. says:

            Would ePertussis be electronic pertussis or enhanced pertussis?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Probably electronic, like everything today, but I guess I read it wrong.

          • Reality022 says:

            That would be virtual pertussis just like nearly all the “vaccine injured kids” reported by the anti-vax liars on the internet are virtual vaccine victims.

            Remember, they live in Fantasy-Land.

          • Leslie says:

            FYI- in 1968, Salk’s inactivated polio vaccine was phased out of required vaccines. It was reinstated in 1997 even though we hadn’t had any huge outbreaks of it in the interim. http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/diseases-and-vaccines#EVT_100337

          • Sonja Henie says:

            It’s funny when you AVs post stuff with no knowledge behind it. Mark Twain’s comment “It is better to keep your mouth (keypad) shut and be thought a fool than to (post) and remove all doubt”.
            Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/marktwain103535.html

            For the most part, the Salk IPV was pretty much replaced with the Sabin vaccine in 1961 due to ease of administration, the live virus of the Sabin, etc. It’s possible some docs kept the old Salk on hand for patients who preferred it until they took it off the market in 1968. From then until 1997, it was all Sabin. In 97, a combined schedule was used, 2 IPV-2 OPV for a short time, then the US went to all IPV in the later 90s. IPV is still given today. It was just recently reformulated to contain just two viruses, types I and III, I believe as there is no more type II virus in the wild any more. We still have polio in the world, in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and as the epidemiologists love to say, it’s just an airplane ride away. The last wild polio cases in the US were in 1979. There was a case of VAPP in 2005. As long as OPV is used anywhere in the world, there is the potential for VAPP to show up.

          • Reality022 says:

            Gee, Sonja. You sound really well informed on this subject, complete with a detailed timeline and explanation of all the changes and underlying issues… unlike Leslie who doesn’t seem to know anything about the subject.

          • Leslie says:

            You mean the OPV that was discontinued because of incidence of shedding and causing vaccine induced polio?

            That would also be the same OPV developed by Sabin that vaccine pioneer Maurice Hilleman found contained cancer causing virus, SV40. Here’s an actual interview with Dr. Hilleman where he admits that: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Oh, Sweet Jesus! Who put out that garbage?

          • Justthefacts says:

            That old lie again. Cut up and old interview and try to invent facts.

            Name one victim of the SV40. Just one. Just anywhere.

            You can’t because THERE ARE NONE…..

          • kfunk937 says:

            Does what you say really matter (is it relevant)? Being able to support and save people who were infected more effectively because of medical advances (e.g., ventilation, including back then the iron lung, and antibiotics for secondary infections) would be totally ignored by you lot.

            P*ss off. Secondary medical improvements saved me from dying when I was three and hospitalised with pneumonia from measles before the vaccine was widely available.

          • Before vaccines, there were no vaccine-preventable deaths. Obviously.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Once again the all encompassing anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists gambit. Funny I haven’t encountered that. There are those fighting for parental rights, safe vaccines and transparency, but even our MESSIAH Andrew Wakefield isn’t anti-vaccine. So where do you dig up that line of crap?

          • Justthefacts says:

            You just posted a conspiracy theory Troll-
            http://disq.us/p/1aqzp8x

            You encounter it every day with your posts. You fioght for nothing but trolling.

            You are right about Wakefield. He only attacked the MMR so he could sell him own vaccines and be part of big pharma before he got caught the then duped you suckers into following him.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Nice conspiracy theory about Wakefield. So what ever happened with Simon Murch and Professor John Walker-Smith?

          • Justthefacts says:

            There you have two more conspiracy theories. You are a busy Troll.

          • AutismDadd says:

            No really what was their ultimate fates?

          • Justthefacts says:

            You are the conspiracy nutcase. You tell me.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Want to avoid it don’t you? Worried it will show what a buffoon it will make you look like.

          • Justthefacts says:

            I have no conspiracy theories. I have nothing to avoid.

            They are your creation. They make you the buffoon.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Wrong

      • Marc says:

        Vaccines are great. They are keeping my kid protected from getting measles and small-pox and all these other diseases that brilliant medical researchers and scientist spent years of their lives trying – and accomplishing – to eradicate. And for some dumb reason, you people are
        trying to bring them back. Yes, I do sleep easier at night.

        • no1uknow1 says:

          if the diseases have, as you claim, been eradicated, how will skipping vaccines bring them back?
          Logic is clearly not the strong suit of you vaccine fans.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Endemic measles was eradicated from countries like the USA and uk.
            Thanks to antivaxers, that is no longer the case.

    • Martin Matthews says:

      Explain how you garner safety for your child, by abdicating parental responsibility to the state… The State doesn’t know if the 50-60 shots they’re mandating your do are safe, they don’t know that your child won’t be permanently harmed, they’ve never actually TESTED what they’re telling you to do. FACT, you’re engaging in medical experimentation – how does that help you sleep at night? Really really curious.

      • Marc says:

        They are keeping my kid protected from getting measles and small-pox and all these other diseases that brilliant medical researchers and scientist spent years of their lives trying – and accomplishing – to eradicate. And for some dumb reason, you people are
        trying to bring them back. Yes, I do sleep easier at night.

        • Martin Matthews says:

          Dumb reason? Like…choosing only things SAFE and healthy? What kind of kid did you make, since most humans haven’t much a challenge with measles and getting a shot to try (yes, it’s try) to prevent it is not without serious risk. WHY choose risky artificial over safe empowering natural? Explain that to me, really! WHY shoot your kid up with Chicken Pox “vaccine” that’s 70% effective for about 5 years and contains neurotoxins, instead of allowing their body to become stronger and life-long immune IF they randomly happen to be exposed to Chicken Pox? Explain that to me. Why the F give your kid a flu shot, when it’s barely ever 25% chance of even helping avoid a flu? Explain that to me. Why? Because likely, as many parents are, you just don’t have the time or wherewithal to OWN these life choices and instead abdicate them to people that can NO LONGER be trusted with blanket faith. Watch this guy to learn more about the BS around the measles and more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47RUl5xqs_s&index=5&list=PLA0wmuSiSmjUYzDZthlILixaUf9Vr4s0d

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            right on Martin. Excellent respond.

          • Reality022 says:

            Readers note:
            Some anti-vaccinationists get their medical information from silly 1970s sit-coms and think they have better information than scientists and doctors with PhDs and MDs.

            Why would anyone take any advice from someone who shows you a Brady Bunch episode as evidence for their bizarre medical delustions. What next? Star Trek episodes showing that Einstein was wrong?

            Sheesh!

          • John Smith says:

            yes we all know that the 70’s were a completely irrelevant time with respect to vaccines. Thanks for bringing this to light. By the way, just because you were born in 1901 doesn’t make you a vaccine expert.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Pretty lame. You preach about telling the truth then post rubbish like this.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Ugly Troll AutismDadd. You troll, attacking the truth then post nothing at all.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Are you off your meds?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Are you still a mindless Troll?

          • AutismDadd says:

            I’ll put a check in the YES box

          • ciaparker2 says:

            The Brady Bunch program shows how common and relatively mild measles was in 1970. 99% of kids got it, had to stay in bed for a few days, and then go back to school. I had measles when I was six, and remember it: my parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts, kids at school, in choir, in the scout troop, teachers, had ALL had measles, and it wasn’t a big deal for any of us.

          • Justthefacts says:

            You are so delusional that you are referencing a TV SHOW as evidence for the mildness of measles. Perfect example of anti-vaxxer logic.

            Time for some truth on the effect of the measles.

            Let’s see how much of a blessing the last major outbreak of the measles was in the US from 1989 through 1991:

            *More than 55,000 cases of measles
            *About 11,000 were hospitalized
            *About 3,500 developed pneumonia
            *Deaths were reported to be at least 189, and were estimated to be 259 because of incomplete reporting.
            *More than 80% of the cases occurred in unvaccinated individuals.
            *About 90% of the deaths were unvaccinated individuals.
            *About 80% of the deaths were due to pneumonia and the rest were due to encephalitis.
            *100% of the 37 babies under 1 year old who died were too young to be vaccinated.
            *More than 91% of the 65 children aged 1 to 4 years old who died were unvaccinated.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            The interested reader is invited to check out the measles incidence and mortality statistics at these links: in the US in 1960, there was less than one death per 10,000 cases in children between three and ten, about one per 10,000 overall. In the UK in the ’80s it was one or two deaths per 10,000 in the ’80s, before the MMR was introduced there. In Europe five years ago it was three out of every 10,000 cases. More research should be done to ascertain what the much higher mortality rate in 1990 may have meant, or what might have accounted for the huge discrepancy with historical reality.

            http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/low-fatality-rate-in-european-measles-outbreak-cdc-report/#.VkVL3rnluUk

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1522578/pdf/amjphnation00499-0004.pdf

            http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

            http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/measles-perspective/

          • Justthefacts says:

            Note how the Shill Cynthia ignores the facts I posted because they are true. Instead, she posts crap from anti-vaxx sites.

            I’ll post one more source – The World Health Organization whihc reports:

            145,700 people died worldwide from the measles in 2013.

            Another fact she can only address with racism.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            That’s right, and 99% of them were malnourished people in the Third World. Measles is VERY rarely dangerous in well-nourished, previously healthy children, rarely dangerous even in adults.
            Let’s take a vote. How many would give their children potentially disabling vaccines in order to keep children in Africa from catching anything from their own children in the US? Even in Africa, the benefits of getting natural measles (one-fifth of the death rate as children who didn’t get measles), are very great. Yes, the vaccine saves lives overall, but it’s a question of whether you’d rather have thirty children with weak immune systems survive, or twenty strong, healthy children with good immune systems. I have no preference for what African parents choose, as long as they have enough accurate information to base their decision on.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            My God, cia, an argument for Darwinism. No, the benefits from measles are not great, anywhere.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Not my argument particularly. But one which Nature makes and always wins.

            The benefits of natural measles are a stronger, more effective immune system, the ability to protect future infants in their first year, developmental leaps in the child, and protection from numerous diseases, especially skin and bone diseases, and several cancers in later life, as well as permanent immunity. And it increases the survival of children in Africa who get and recover from it by a factor of five. Those who get natural measles (not a shot) have only one-fifth the death rate of those who didn’t get it.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            There are no benefits to getting measles disease. Lurkers: Please do not listen to this madwoman, who quotes from a website called “The Truth Magazine” which proudly declares: “OFFICIAL PROOF 9-11 Was an inside job – Coincidence that we have terrorism and a coup to stop media from reporting on it?” and “Report Suggests Hitler was Financed by USA and UK Banks” in addition to other nonsense.
            http://www.truthlibrary.info/

          • Reality022 says:

            One thing is obvious –
            Mental cases seem to flock together.

          • Justthefacts says:

            [ 99% of them were malnourished people in the Third World.]

            So, Cynthia, where did you get that number? How do you know that? I say you made it up because you are a racists and think the whole world is that way.

            Post a source or you are a racist………

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Quantify “rare” for us Cia?

            How come one death in 1000 measles cases is “rare”, yet you regard one case of vaccine allergy in 1 million as “common”?

            And please stop with the lie that those who get natural measles in Africa are 5 times less likely to die that the vaccinated.
            We have been through that BS before.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            The Refusers and Vax Truth are nitwit sites and I refuse to go there. Did actually look at The Refusers and it started out with so much hyperbole and inflammatory language I didn’t read on. That’s not how medical reports are written.

            The second link has a lot of good graphs. The author starts out: “The importance of any disease as a public health problem must be gauged from many angles. For example, using mortality as a criterion heart disease becomes most important. Short-term morbidity makes the common cold rank high. For chronic disability arthritis and mental disease dominate. For public interest and parental concern, in spite of relatively low incidence, nothing has equaled poliomyelitis. According to these criteria, the importance of measles cannot be compared with any of the diseases mentioned so far, but it should still be classed as an important health problem on two main counts. First, any parent who has seen his small child suffer even for a few days with persistent fever of 105°, with hacking cough and delirium wants to see this prevented, if it can be done safely. Second, at last there is promise that something can be accomplished by organized health action.” He concludes: “To those who ask me, “Why do you wish to eradicate measles?,” I reply with the same answer that Hillary used when asked why he wished to climb Mt. Everest. He said, “Because it is there.” To this may be added, “. . and it can be done.”

            The numbers from the UK are interesting. The death rate in 1940 was ~2/1000 cases (reported cases). From 2000 on, it ranged from 1 death in 2000 to 1 death in 6000 (2013).

            I refuse to open Vax Truth because I don’t want to add to their count.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Michael Belkin used CDC statistics which showed that the death rate in Europe from measles in an outbreak five years ago was three in 10,000. I don’t care if you like him and his site or not.
            Yes, Dr. Langmuir’s article from 1960 has good graphs which show that the death rate in the US from measles at that time was less than one in 10,000 cases in children from three to ten, as high as four in 10,000 cases in infants under one year old, in whom it was rare because all their mothers had had it and gave them placental immunity for as long as a year as well as immunity from breast feeding. Overall it was one death in 10,000 cases.
            Was there a reason you left out his description of measles in the first paragraph? “This self-limiting infection of short duration, moderate severity, and low fatality has maintained a remarkably stable biological balance over the centuries.” Yes, measles causes a high fever which lasts for two and a half to three days. It’s self-limiting. It happens, it’s unpleasant during those days, and then it leaves. Dr. Langmuir didn’t know how necessary febrile illnesses are for the education and strengthening of the immune system, or he wouldn’t have thought the fever could so easily be dispensed with.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Oh, screw this “placental immunity” shtick. First of all, that’s not a medical term, it’s something you made up because you think it’s cute. But the PASSIVE immunity a baby gets from its mother who had natural measles lasts about 5 months; that from an immunized mother about 3 months. Breast feeding gives basically zero immunity to measles. I have posted links to all this stuff in the past.

            The reason I left that out was it wasn’t relevant to what I was posting about.

            Dr. Langmuir knew a lot more than you.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Same thing. The baby got the mother’s antibodies when it was still in the uterus, antibodies to everything she had ever been exposed to, and they protect the baby passively before his own immune system is up and running and taking on microbial challenges independently. In the case of measles, from six to twelve months.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            No, cia, 5 months.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            From an old article by a doctor who had treated many cases of measles: “In this practice measles is considered as a relatively mild and inevitable childhood ailment that is best encountered
            any time from 3 to 7 years of age. Over the past 10 years there have been few serious complications at any age, and all children have made complete recoveries. As a result of this reasoning no special attempts have been made at prevention even in young infants in whom the disease has not been found to be
            especially serious….

            “It is conspicious that the 5-15-years age group contained the vast majority of the cases. No effort was made to prevent the spread of the disease, except the ordinary precaution of not permitting juvenile visitors. Gamma globulin to thwart the onset of the disease
            was never used, since the few cases seen affecting the adults have always been severe. It is felt advisable to get the infection over in childhood and thus avoid this hazard in later life….

            “Treatment and Prevention of Complications.–Adequate bed rest, fluids, soluble aspirin, and a cough linctus were the routine treatment in all cases. Penicillin V was used in 12% of cases
            when there was clinical evidence of one of the three complications mentioned above. In a further 12% penicillin was used as an “umbrella” to protect chesty children.”

            http://www.jstor.org/stable/25

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Aspirin? Really?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            He was writing in 1959, before the medical profession had learned of the danger of aspirin causing Reye’s syndrome, probably what caused Olivia Dahl to get measles encephalitis when she was recovering from measles. Aspirin usually does no harm even in children: my mother gave me some maybe three times when I was a child. But because it sometimes does severe harm, it’s no longer recommended for children. Same as with vaccines. Usually they don’t do obvious, immediate harm, but sometimes the reaction is so obviously linked and so severe that parents need to be very careful about allowing them to be given to their children.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Too funny!

            The HELL Olivia Dahl had Reye Syndrome. That comes from chickenpox, not measles. I am truly sick and tired of you blaming parents when something goes wrong with what you think in your deluded mind are mild diseases.

            You have no medical background and no business posting this kind of stuff.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Olivia Dahl never got aspirin.
            Stop inventing bs.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Truth Library: http://www.truthlibrary.info/
            9-11 Was an inside job – Coincidence that we have terrorism and a coup
            to stop media from reporting on it?” and “Report Suggests Hitler was
            Financed by USA and UK Banks” in addition to other nonsense.

            Anyone can find doctors who agree with them.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Langmuir practiced in the era when diphtheria, pertussis and polio were killing tens of thousands of kids each year.
            Compared to that, several hundred measles deaths didn’t seem extreme, yet he still described the disease as of “moderate severity”.

            These kids died despite maternal immunity and breastfeeding, Cia.

          • Leslie says:

            When exactly did any of those diseases kill tens of thousands every year in the US? Cuz here’s the CDC death rates dating back to 1950, the time frame Langmuir practiced. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/E/reported-cases.pdf

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Langmuir didn’t just practice in the post vax era (when pertussis and diphtheria deaths were obviously lower); he practiced from the 1930s onward.
            During that era, and before their vaccines, the annual death rates from pertussis, diphtheria and polio exceeded 10,000.
            http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209448

          • Mike Stevens says:

            What gets me is that you are happy to see one child in 300 die from measles, when it can be safely prevented.

            But then you did say you’d “relish the return of measles”, didn’t you, you callous b.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Now just wait a frickin’ minute here, cia! You stayed in bed a few days and then went back to school? Aren’t you the one who’s always recommending three weeks in bed? You didn’t even follow your own advice! How do you flipping know the course of measles for all those people you mentioned? You DON’T! You don’t know if some were hospitalized, if some got pneumonia, or ear infections with subsequent hearing loss (as I apparently did), and so forth. I agree that I don’t know anyone who died from measles, or even, to the best of my knowledge was hospitalized, but we have documentation that such events happened.

            The BRADY BUNCH? Something written by a bunch of Hollywood flakes? Oh, well, that fits right in with Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey, Robert DeNiro and all the other anti-vax superstars. You can judge a person by the company they keep.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I was six and had no say in the matter, and no knowledge either. It’s like with aspirin, usually it doesn’t hurt if a child takes it, but sometimes it does, so why take the risk? I don’t think anyone knew then about measles depressing the immune system to an unusual degree, more than other illnesses, for several weeks after apparent recovery. We all just went back to school. But in those weeks it’s possible for a secondary complication to infect the child, with possibly serious consequences. Why take the risk? Hitler’s little brother Edmond got such a secondary infection in the weeks after having measles, and died of it. (Just an example.) Also similar to the pertussis vaccine depressing the immune system for at least a month after giving it, often allowing serious cases of polio to take hold in the ’50s, or clinical cases of HIb meningitis, rare before the DPT started in 1948. Doctors used to suspend giving the DPT during polio outbreaks as it was so well known that it often permitted crippling cases of polio to take hold.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Measles was “a big deal” for the tens of thousands of kids who died from it in the USA last century, Cia.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6878996

          • JoeFarmer says:

            You are pathetic.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            You can do better than that, can’t you? That was just three bucks even at a dollar per word.

          • JoeFarmer says:

            How about this: You’re unfit to be a parent and your child(ren) should be taken away from you.

            Like that better, you piece of garbage?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            http://www.truthlibrary.info/articles/health/1959-measles-a-mild-infection/

            Or you could get information from a practicing doctor in 1959 who saw many cases of measles and said it’s mild and good to get it over with when you’re a child.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Truth Library: 9-11 Was an inside job – Coincidence that we have terrorism and a coup to stop media from reporting on it?” and “Report Suggests Hitler was Financed by USA and UK Banks” in addition to other nonsense.
            http://www.truthlibrary.info/

            Anyone can find a group of doctors who agree with them.

          • Ron Roy says:

            It’s hard to find any doctor that has the balls to tell the truth. Many know the truth but they risk their careers not to mention their lives if they expose it.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            I’ve seen more cases of measles than Glockler has, Cia.
            But then you have extreme confirmation bias – you only believe things which conform to your own preconceptions, and ignore the other 99.9% of the evidence.

          • Andrew Lazarus says:

            That isn’t what your source says. It says measles is “usually” mild. Sure, complications ensue 1/10 of the time, that is still usually mild. But, sometimes fatal instead.

            Reading comprehension fail.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Serious complications occur very rarely, certainly not 10% of the time. Common complications like diarrhea, bronchitis, conjunctivitis, and ear infections occur fairly often, but they are not serious. It is the complications which can become dangerous, not measles itself, which is why it is advisable to keep the patient quiet and comfortable in bed until the fever is gone, and quiet at home for three weeks after the day the rash appears, certainly keep those who have symptoms of any illness away from him.

            Again, in 1960 in the US, there was an average of 450 deaths a year out of four million cases a year, the entire birth cohort. Everyone born before 1958 in the US is legally presumed to have had natural measles and may not be forced to get a measles vaccine. You had it yourself, as I did, and we both had uneventful cases.

            Giving the appropriate dose of vitamin A to African children with measles cuts the death rate by half, and it is wise for people even in the First World to consider taking it, as measles uses up existing vitamin A stores very quickly. Bed rest, vitamin A, refusing all fever reducers, and adequate hydration, will prevent complications in the vast majority of cases. And natural measles provides many lifelong benefits to the immune system.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            The wisdom of “Dr.” Parker, JD I’ll add. Lurkers, do not pay attention to this dreck.

          • Proponent says:

            Welp.. I am confused now.

            You have stated that no ‘fever suppressants’ should be administered during, and for example.. a measles infection.

            ciaparker2: “But kids have to get fevers for the maturation of their immune systems. Parents have to realize that it’s normal and desirable to get febrile illnesses, and that bed rest and adequate hydration are necessary.”

            Yet.. and on the flip-side of this particular coin.. have stated/posted..

            ciaparker2: “I KNEW you were completely unfamiliar with fever triggering autism (etc.) In addition, the four main triggers of MS attacks are: fever, environmental heat (air conditioning is tax-deductible for us), stress, and fatigue.”

            ciaparker2: “My uncle fell asleep in the sun as a teen, and when he woke up, had schizophrenia. I got symptoms of MS after a fever, my daughter got bowel disease after a high fever in 2007 at the age of seven, my nephew got bowel disease after a high fever with bronchitis.”

            And..

            ciaparker2: “My uncle fell asleep in the sun as a teen, and when he woke up, had schizophrenia.”

            And..

            ciaparker2: “My nephew the same, has Asperger’s. He didn’t have bowel disease until he got a fever at 18 which started it.”

            So.. it sounds like fevers are a bad thing. Unless you have a vaccine preventable illness.. then.. allow the fever to flourish by all means.

            So.. confusing.

            (And.. bat guano crazy.)

          • Proponent says:

            BMJ | “Vitamin A supplements and mortality related to measles: a randomised clinical trial”

            Patients were already hospitalized and receiving treatment for the severity of their measles infection..

            “Half of the subjects were then randomly allocated to receive vitamin A (200000 IU in oil orally immediately and again the next day); the other children were given standard treatment.”

            And .. at.. no.. point.. does the study suggest that Vitamin A alone would have resulted in the reductions of mortality.

            And stating the obvious.. much more preferable NOT to contract measles in the first place.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You do know you can get “natural” chickenpox a second time? And seriously, the Brady Bunch? There’s also a “Flintstones” episode about measles.

          • Martin Matthews says:

            Sonya – WTF does your angst for TV shows have to do with the clear fact that meaningless childhood “diseases” have become major sales areas for Pharma – despite their overt harm and interruption with natural immunity. NOTHING about this makes sense. Did you know that your recently Vaxxed for Chicken Pox kid can shed the (lab altered) virus and cause another fully healthy kid to get Chicken Pox? CDC agrees…truth is, a more apt law would be to quarantine recently Vaxxed kids to keep them away from healthy kids while they are contagious.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            100-150 deaths a year from chickenpox pre-vaccine is “meaningless”? I think the families of those who died would beg to differ.

            “Shedding” from chickenpox vaccine, yes, lab altered to WEAKEN it, is very rare.
            https://www.verywell.com/live-vaccines-and-vaccine-shedding-2633700
            “The chicken pox
            vaccine doesn’t cause shedding unless your child very rarely develops a
            vesicular rash after getting vaccinated. However, the risk is thought
            to be minimal and the CDC reports only 5 cases of transmission of
            varicella vaccine virus after immunization among over 55 million doses
            of vaccine. ”

            It’s funny that you AVs are such weenies about the possibility of vaccine shedding, yet you send your kids to these stupid chickenpox parties, give them “chickenpox lollipops” and the like to give them the damn disease.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            100 deaths a year from chickenpox out of a million cases. We all know that chickenpox is a very mild disease of childhood and promotes the development of a healthy immune system.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You’re full of shyt, cia. No disease “promotes the development of a healthy immune system”. Your immune system knows how to work when it is challenged.

          • Justthefacts says:

            7,000 people died of chickenpox in 2013, Cynthia.

            Tell up if you care about those people or don’t just because they are foreigners.

            I dare you to show your racism again……..

          • Leslie says:

            Where exactly?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Worldwide, Leslie. Are you going to show some racism and say that developing world lives don’t matter?

            Please, do that.

          • Leslie says:

            JFC…are you off your meds? You’re pulling the racism card now?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Explain how a disease is “harmless” that kills 100,000 people worldwide every year without being racists. Give it a try.

            I’m not play the card until you post something racist. See if you can avoid it.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            World-wide? You’re saying that American children have to suck it up and just get the shots no matter how many are permanently damaged by them so African children several thousand miles away won’t catch measles or chickenpox from them? Before the vaccine started to be given routinely in 1995, there were a million cases of chickenpox a year in the US, two hundred deaths, half in children, half in adults, in whom it is often more serious. For most people it’s mild and inconsequential, as for me at seven and my daughter at nearly two. And it’s also invaluable for the education and maturation of the immune system. Malnourished children often die from even the most trivial infections because their immune systems are so weak.

          • Justthefacts says:

            I love it when you get all Racists after having your silly “harmless” argument shot down! You have to run away to a the straw man of “vaccines are bad” since harmless has gone in the gutter.

            There is next to Zero permanent damage to anyone from the chickenpox vaccine and there is 7,000 deaths from the chicken pox worldwide although you ARE TOO RACISTS TO CARE.

            Racism is a bad play for you to make as a shill.

            Any more unsubstantiated nonsense you want to post, Racist?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            There have been many vaccine injuries caused by the varicella vaccine, while the disease is mild and inconsequential. Again, I don’t care what you choose. Anyone here older than 25 probably got natural chickenpox as a child and remembers how mild it was.

            Not rising to the racist ploy.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Bull!

            My kids were quite sick with chickenpox.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            My daughter had a fever for less than a day and vomited once. But kids have to get fevers for the maturation of their immune systems. Parents have to realize that it’s normal and desirable to get febrile illnesses, and that bed rest and adequate hydration are necessary.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            So what? Dammit, cia, I’m really angry with your implications that if people don’t follow your witchcraft, it’s their fault if their kids were sicker than yours.

            You’re not a doctor. I’m about to report you to your law board for practicing medicine without a license.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Good luck…

          • Sonja Henie says:

            With what? You don’t have a license to practice law?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I have inactive status.

          • Justthefacts says:

            [There have been many vaccine injuries caused by the varicella vaccine]

            How many? Where? post them?

            According to HRSA, there have been 7 confirmed injuries out of 96,646,081 vaccinations or less than one in ten million. All of them minor.

            If you don’t know about any of them, you made that up and you are a liar.

            Tell us, Cynthia, or are you just a lying shill?

          • Leslie says:

            Current research from Baylor also shows that “History of chicken pox may reduce risk of brain cancer later in life”. https://www.bcm.edu/news/cancer/chicken-pox-may-reduce-risk-of-brain-cancer

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Exactly. Thank you. There are MANY ways in which the childhood diseases benefit the person who goes through the natural diseases, which educate the immune system in ways we have only begun to explore.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            No, we don’t all know that, because it’s untrue. It promotes development of shingles, is what it promotes.

          • Boris Ogon says:

            Can you afford an expedition to remote Myanmar? I’m sure the Naga would be fascinated by your insight. As a bonus, they’ve abandoned headhunting.

          • AutismDadd says:

            As meaningless as ever

          • Justthefacts says:

            As Big a Troll as ever.

          • AutismDadd says:

            SOOO clever

          • If that is true, then places with the highest rate of vaccine compliance should have the highest rate of VPDs. Do they? No. It’s the exact opposite.

            Where is the vaccine-related measles epidemic in Mississippi?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            A few people do, but not many. And I read that if a child gets chickenpox before two, his immune system might not have matured enough to produce the necessary antibodies. I worried about that when my daughter got it at 22 months old. But she had so many lesions all over her body that I hope she got permanent antibodies.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Well, yeah, you deliberately and rather crudely infected your daughter. Shame on you!

          • Reality022 says:

            chiapet mumbled, “I read that if a child gets chickenpox before two, his immune system might not have matured enough to produce the necessary antibodies.”

            Who’d you read that from? Suzanne “I don’t know anything about vaccines or immunology” Humphries?

            BTW – That statement you referred to is demonstrably wrong and idiotic. That you haven’t figured it out yet is no surprise.

          • VikingAPRNCNP says:

            You are innumerate

            1 in 250 cases of measles result in death, cognitive or sensory disability. About 1 in 4 cases of measles result in hospitalization.

            Vs a less than 1 in a million chance of death or anaphylaxis from mmr vaccination.

            Add in that a case of wild measles increases all cause mortality and I think the evidence clearly shows the benefit of vaccinations for primary prevention of disease and disability.

          • Martin Matthews says:

            In the USA? WTF are you doing?

          • Reality022 says:

            Martin, you may want to become informed on a subject before you wade in to offer your opinions –
            .
            cdc(dot)gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00017268.htm
            “Public-Sector Vaccination Efforts in Response to the Resurgence of Measles Among Preschool-Aged Children — United States, 1989-1991”
            “During 1989 – 1991, state health departments reported a provisional total of 55,467 measles cases that resulted in a minimum of 11,251 known hospitalizations, 44,127 hospital days, and 166 suspected measles-related deaths.”
            The USA. 1990s. 55000+ cases. 166 deaths = 3 death per 1000. 11000+ hospitalized = 20%
            Such a minor disease for a top-line 1st world country to handle. No problems.

            That’s right, Martin. The US had a major measles outbreak in the late 1989-1990 just about when Nirvana was getting popular. I know this is ancient history and the US was still stuck in the Middle Ages as far as sanitation and hygiene are concerned…

            Try to keep up if you want to discuss the subject as anything other than an uninformed anti-vaccinationist.

          • VikingAPRNCNP says:

            I was giving the least worse case scenarios. I don’t have the 1989 figures in my head. The point remains that measles is neither benign or something to take lightly. Thanks for posting these…

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            If you’re interested

            Current Measles Trends: 1990
            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001999.htm

            However those are numbers gathered by the CDC, the government agency tasked with protecting Americans from these kinds of infectious diseases. So, for the average uneducated, 80 IQ antivaxxer, immediately suspect.

          • John Smith says:

            can you prove to me that you don’t work at mcdonalds? Im pretty sure a mcdonalds worker can post cdc garbage as well. I would also refrain from using cartoon pictures, as most people probably think you are a predator. Except for maybe the same small group of weirdos who upvote you.

          • The correct comparison for deaths and injuries caused by seatbelts is how many deaths were caused by going through the windshield and not heaven.

            By the same reasoning, the correct comparison for vaccine deaths and injuries is deaths and injuries from the disease before vaccines.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Yea if you DENY vaccine adverse events the Stats smell like roses.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Yea, if you DENY the truth with no facts you smell like a troll.

          • AutismDadd says:

            if you twistthefacts you smell like bbrraaatt

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Yeah, in the most malnourished countries in the world. In the developed countries, since 1960, measles has caused death in one to three out of every 10,000 cases, NOT one in 250. At this time, one in 40 kids in the US gets autism from vaccines, one in three allergies, one in nine asthma.
            You live in another world. Those who live in this one know that the natural childhood diseases are mild and beneficial for the development of the immune system, even cancer protection, while the vaccines often cause any one or more of hundreds of severe adverse reactions.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Measles suppresses the immune system for at least 3 years afterwards. If measles protected against cancer, there would have been no cancer prior to 1963, when virtually everyone got measles.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Except that 99% of kids in the US got measles by 18. In my school I got it in first grade, was out for a while, then, like everyone else who got it, was back in school and never looked back. No health consequences after recovery. I recommend staying at home for two or three weeks after the day the rash appears, even though the patient will feel fine long before then, to avoid secondary infections during that time.

          • Justthefacts says:

            In my school, two children died from the measles in 1964.

            So much of anecdotal nonsense from you.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            You did not go to my school, did you? I was at Halle Hewetson Elementary in Las Vegas, Nevada. Neither I nor any of my relatives or acquaintances ever had or heard of anyone who died of measles or was disabled by it. All of us had gotten it and we all recovered from it with no sequelae. Deaths existed, but out of a pool of four million cases a year, they were few and far between (450 in 1960). Now we’ve got one in forty with autism, and any deaths from vaccines are swept under the carpet, called SIDS if it’s in an infant. Deaths from asthma, allergies, seizure disorders, diabetes, etc., are considered “unrelated,” although they would not have occurred in most cases without the vaccines.

          • JGC says:

            Surely you’re not arguing that because neither you nor any of your relatives ever heard of anyone who died of measles no one ever actually did die of measles, are you?

            “Deaths existed, but out of a pool of four million cases a year, they were few and far between (450 in 1960).”
            You’re speaking as if the only reason to vaccinate people is to prevent deaths from infectious disease, rather than to reduce the incidence of the disease itself. Why?
            Those who became infected still got sick and suffered (around four million people each year prior to vaccination against measles), many still required hospitalization (between 11,000 and 14, 0000 a years0, prior to vaccination) and many suffered serious and permanent adverse outcomes as the result of infection (blindness, deafness, impaired mental function, etc.) even though none of them actually ‘died’.
            Would you similarly argue “Because the invention of the iron lung kept most of those paralyzed by polio from actually dying there was no need to develop and administer polio vaccines”?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            I don’t know anyone with MS.
            So it doesn’t exist, right? (Cia Parker logic)

          • JGC says:

            I don’t actually know any Bedouin personally–they must be fictional.

          • Justthefacts says:

            You did not go to my school, did you? I was at Umphrey Lee Elementary
            in Dallas, Texas. Neither I nor any of my relatives or
            acquaintances ever had or heard that nobody ever died from the measles. in fact, we know of two. All of us had gotten it and many of us were severely sick and some went to the hospital. Yes, deaths existed, but out of a pool of four million
            cases a year, they were 450 deaths in 1960 and 5000 cases of brain damage per year.

            The vaccine actually helps prevent SIDS in children and the SIDs rate has been decreasing with the increasing used of vaccines.

            The best news is that It has been shown, conclusively, using millions of vaccinated and unvaccinated study subjects, that vaccines do not cause autism.

            It has also been show, conclusively that Deaths from asthma,
            allergies, seizure disorders, diabetes, etc., are actually and factually
            “unrelated,” to the vaccine.

            Have you got any more anecdotal mindless rants to do? BRING IT !!!! Cynthia Parker, you Australian natualopathic shill. We have been dealing with your lies for years.

          • Proponent says:

            ciaparker2: “No health consequences after recovery.”

            “Evidence for the role of a virus in MS

            The cause of MS is still unknown. However, several factors suggest that an infectious agent is involved in triggering MS.”

            “Data from epidemiological studies (studies that analyze the geographical, socioeconomic, genetic and other factors that may contribute to who gets MS) suggest that exposure to an infectious agent may be involved in triggering the disease.

            Ninety to ninety-five percent of people with MS have proteins in their spinal fluid that are typically found in the spinal fluid of people with nervous system diseases that are known to be reactions to viruses.”

            (Source: Viruses: National Multiple Sclerosis Society )

          • ciaparker2 says:

            MS is caused by mercury in vaccines. I have no time to spend on this right now, but every time I’ve taken something that pulls mercury out of the brain in the past year, I have had drastic reactions: ascorbyl palmitate last year. one dose of Mer Detox (a homeopathic spray), and three doses of homeopathic remedies to pull out mercury from another homeopath. Symptoms like those of my diagnosed MS attacks: severe vertigo, loss of balance (ataxia), and severe vomiting. I’ve decided to stick with the milder, slower Andy Cutler mercury chelation protocol which not only pulls it out a little at a time, but also causes it to be excreted from the body.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            So, when mercury goes into the brain, it causes MS, and when it comes out of the brain, it causes MS.
            What a joke.
            You forgot the bit about mercury causing extreme delusional psychosis, Cia.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Not always. There is obviously a genetic predisposition to be unable to excrete mercury even as well as most people do: a deficiency of glutathione has been found to be present in many of us, which inhibits detoxification. It usually is stored in the brain essentially for life, until something releases it. The homeopath last summer told me that fever pulled stored mercury from the bones (presumably the brain too), and that made sense, since my symptoms of MS and my daughter and nephew’s symptoms of bowel disease only started after a high fever. The four triggers of MS attacks are environmental heat, fever, stress, and physical fatigue, I believe that these are the factors which can initiate a mercury/MS attack when the mercury is released into the blood. At the time when I was diagnosed by MRI with MS, I had ataxia, listing to the left when I walked, dizziness, trembling hands, and numbness in the left side of my face which spread from my lower lip out. In another attack, diagnosed by a neurologist, I had extreme vertigo and vomited every time I turned my head even an inch: I had to keep it turned all the way to the right for over a week to try to prevent the extreme vertigo and vomiting. In another attack my left arm and leg were completely paralyzed for over a month, and the muscles went completely flaccid. So last year that homeopath recommended my daughter take six capsules of ascorbyl palmitate a day, which I googled and learned that it is one of the few substances to cross the blood-brain barrier and pull mercury out of the brain (ALA, alpha lipoic acid, is another, while DMSA pulls mercury from the bones, organs, and blood, and holds onto it until it is excreted from the body). I took it as well for about a week at six a day: it completely eliminated my ability to sleep, just as my permanent severe insomnia started at the time of the high fever which started the symptoms of MS. I cut back to one ascorbyl palmitate a day, and took it for several weeks when I had the first of now thirty-four mercury attacks since last June. Extreme dizziness, vertigo, no balance, and vomiting, and sweating, when I don’t usually sweat. I thought it was MS, severe attacks for the first time in years. They got worse and more frequent until I figured out that it was the ascorbyl palmitate which was pulling the mercury out of my brain without causing it to be excreted the way a chelator does. I googled it and found that, indeed, ascorbyl palmitate is not a chelator. So at the end of August last year I stopped taking the ascorbyl palmitate and started taking ALA and DMSA again (the Andy Cutler protocol I read about at Regardingcaroline.com). The attacks stopped until the middle of October, when I always get worse. I think maybe the body’s inner thermostat having to work harder as the weather gets cold has something to do with it. And I had another twelve or thirteen attacks until Christmas Day. Then no attacks until June, when I took ONE dose of a homeopathic remedy called Mer Detox. I thought it would work gently and imperceptibly, but three hours later at the health food store I had a violent attack out of nowhere (like all the attacks have been). I couldn’t walk and was extremely dizzy. We went home and I vomited four or five times in the car, then another four or five times at home. After three or four hours I felt normal again, but I had maybe six or seven attacks before they stopped. I decided that remedy was too strong and violent, and contacted another homeopath to whom I explained my situation. He sent remedies, which, as I already explained, first kept me from sleeping at all, then ataxia, then an attack of vertigo which lasted two hours, then a severe attack out of nowhere which caused me to crawl to bed with a pot and vomit every two minutes for forty minutes, and I sweated and was very uncomfortable. After forty minutes, it stopped, and I shivered with cold. I was afraid that was the beginning of another series of attacks, and maybe it was, but that was almost two weeks ago and I haven’t had another attack (so far). I told the homeopath that I didn’t think it safe to continue taking the remedies, and he refunded me a portion of my payment to him. I finished a three-day round of Andy Cutler chelation Sunday evening, and will continue doing that every week for several more years, hoping to get all the mercury out, regain my ability to sleep, my energy, and not have the attacks of dizziness or ataxia again. Essentially cure my MS.
            And I don’t care at all if your loss of memory has expunged any memory of taking the Hypocratic Oath from your mind.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Yawn….

          • JoeFarmer says:

            “I finished a three-day round of Andy Cutler chelation Sunday evening,
            and will continue doing that every week for several more years…”

            Suckah!

          • Justthefacts says:

            Laws in 2004 and 2006 outlawed all but trace amounts of mercury in all California vaccines. Let’s look at the results:

            1970s = children received 25 mcg of thimerosal in one vaccine = Low autism
            2015 = children received only traces of thimerosal in all combined= High autism.

            Tell me, How is it that 25X+ more thimerosal in in the 1970s means low autism but “trace amounts” in 2015 means high autism? We are all ready to hear this explanation.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I’ve told you seventeen times. Before there were few shots given, the DPT, then Hib, then hep-B, with mercury. Lots of autism. Most states still permit mercury-containing flu shots with as much mercury as always, 25 mcg per dose, which adds up if you get it every year and store it in the brain. California has banned all but trace amounts, which are still way higher than hazardous waste levels for mercury, much much higher than permitted levels of mercury in drinking water. But the most important point is that any vaccine can cause vaccine encephalitis, caused by an over-enthusiastic reaction of the immune system to the incursion of the potent antigens of the vaccine (i.e. ANY vaccine ingredient), and the brain damage can and does cause autism, even with no mercury. But yes, mercury DID use to cause a lot of autism, and the victims are still disabled and still haven’t been compensated (including my daughter and me).

          • Justthefacts says:

            You didn’t say anything. The thimerosal levels is California are 100X lower than the 1990s and AUTISM RATES CLIMB. You gave no explanation at all.

            All you did is point a yell “Mercury!!!”

            You are lying again. The EPA limit for mercury in water is 2 mcg/L and the amount in a California Vaccine is less than 1 mcg. Your blood has 4 mcg/L of mercury in it RIGHT NOW!!

            Cynthia, the lying lair can can’t face the fact that California has PROVEN that thimerosal is not responsible for the rise in autism.

            Lying, lying Cythia…….

          • ciaparker2 says:

            It has done NOTHING of the kind. A large number of vaccines has been ADDED to the schedule in the last twenty years, and ALL of them can and do cause vaccine encephalitis, stroke-like brain damage, and autism. The main symptoms of vaccine encephalitis are screaming constantly and inconsolably for three hours or more (my baby screamed that way for four days and nights reacting to the hep-B vaccine at birth, and was later diagnosed with autism), but it could also be blank staring episodes (petit mal seizures) and/or excessive somnolence, and most parents don’t even notice if their infant stares blankly or sleeps too much. The interested reader should read Dr. Harold Buttram’s Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis? and Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hep-B Vaccine and Autism.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            cia, now that you’ve been back a few days and you keep spewing the same garbage post after post, I’m bored with it all.

            Dr. Buttcrack is a total fraud, supporting child abusers.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I have informed the interested readers of this danger, they should research it and form their own opinion. They will in most cases draw the appropriate conclusions in their assessment of vulgar and aggressive vaccine defenders who carry out their work full-time.

          • Justthefacts says:

            It’s strawman time!!!

            Since Cynthia has lost the argument about thimerosal, she now retreats to “A large number of vaccines has been ADDED” now attempting to claim that its the “number” of vaccines and not thimerosal.

            You are changing the subject, Cynthia. The subject is Thimerosal and Mercury. As soon as you admit that California Has shown that Thimerosal is not responsible for Autism, we can move on to your other bad ideas.

            Now try to focus, Cynthia. Reducing the amount of thimerodal by over 100X when the autism rate is climbing shows that thimerosal, and only thimerosal, is not responsive for autism.

            Correct? Try to focus on one subject.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            There are two major causes of autism: mercury and vaccine encephalitis. Those interested in proof of mercury causing autism (and many other serious conditions, including death) should read the books The Age of Autism and Evidence of Harm. Those interested in proof of vaccines causing encephalitis, brain damage, and autism, should read the books I mentioned in my comment above. I do not have time to quibble with a sh– for vaccines.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Bull. Your Dr. Buttcrack is a fraud of the worst kind, perpetrating child abuse.

          • Proponent says:

            ciaparker2: “The main symptoms of vaccine encephalitis are screaming constantly and inconsolably for three hours or more (my baby screamed that way for four days and nights reacting to the hep-B vaccine at birth..”

            And of course, you took your baby (that you later purposefully infected with chickenpox while you were experiencing a bout of shingles).. to the emergency room?

            Or.. at the bare minimum.. the doctor’s office as promptly as you could?

            Answer: ‘I did nothing of the sort.’

          • ciaparker2 says:

            The hospital broke at least three federal laws: it did not get permission to give my newborn to give the hep-b vaccine (as was usual, I have heard of many other infants given the vaccine without permission), it did not give me the vaccine information sheet with the most common symptoms of vaccine reaction, and it did not keep a record of the brand and lot number as it was required by federal law to do. I did not realize at that time that constant inconsolable screaming for over three hours was a sign of vaccine reaction. I knew it was too early for colic, the only thing I could think of, since she had been well, nursing avidly only an hour before, and had no other symptoms. Colic never starts before the third week. My mother told the pediatrician, who asked if it were for over three hours, she said Much, much longer than that. He just brushed it off, saying that his older daughter had had colic, which wasn’t a physical condition anyway.
            And I have told you this dozens of times before, and I hope the reader will wonder why anyone would brush off a crime for financial gain by attacking the victims.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Blah, blah, blah! Keep repeating this story often enough cia, and people will believe it is true, right?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            So you can’t explain why less mercury meant more autism, Cia…..
            Why didn’t you just say “No, I can’t explain it”, and save some of your precious energy?

          • David says:

            But thimerosal is the cure of autism. When the vaccines had high levels of thimerosal in the 70s there was so little autism. Almost every child was injected with this high levels of thimerosal and look how few had autism
            We need to go back to those vaccines that cure autism!!!

          • Ron Roy says:

            Thimerosal isn’t the only cause of autism the germ in the measles vaccine the aluminum used as an adjuvant in many vaccines, the combination of vaccines.Today a child receives 49 doses of 14 vaccines by age 6 compared to 13 doses in the mid 70’s.

          • Ron Roy says:

            I knew doctors were ignorant but you’ve taken ignorance to a new level.

          • Mark says:

            You should try loco regional hyperthermia. Many naturopaths use it in their office to treat cancers and it has a very safe side effect profile but miraculously cures cancers
            Naturopaths have told me that it can be used to liquefy and drain the Mercury out of the brain and would probably drastically improve your MS.
            You should try it! Natural with no side effects

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Your first sentence has nothing to do with how long measles suppresses your immune system, and I believe the number is more like 95%, not 99%.

            Who gives a damn what your personal measles course was like?

            Lurkers, please note that this person has no medical credentials, is a lawyer who could actually be charged with practicing medicine without a license due to these “recommendations”.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Serologic tests done on young Army recruits in 1960 showed that 99% of them had antibodies to measles, meaning that most had a case of measles, but others had subclinical cases which still produced permanent immunity.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            How about a cite, cia? I mean, do you really mind if I don’t take your word for it? I’ve read articles that refer to titers, too, with slightly lower numbers than yours, AND I can give a cite.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long
            http://www.kidshealth.org.nz/measles-immunisation

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I gave it to you before, wasn’t it in Vaccines by Plotkin and Mortimer? Ask Justthefacts, he keeps a detailed record of every word I say on the Internet.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Survivor bias.

            Please don’t post your own homespun medical advice on how to manage measles, Cia.
            You are a medically ignorant idiot, and your advice on how to treat infections would kill.

          • Maybe if we started advertising vaccines as “This product teaches your immune system how to fight xyz.” ….Maybe not.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Vaccines do not teach, they merely force a reaction that generates antibody response.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Hey, lookit this, cia!
            http://www.bbc.com/news/health-37008620
            “Music festivals including Glastonbury have become a hotbed of measles this summer, Public Health England has warned.

            It said a “significant number” of cases had been linked to the events, with 36 cases reported in June and July alone.

            Some have needed hospital treatment.”

            Most of the festival-related cases were in people who had not been vaccinated.

          • Kathy says:

            oh Cia popped back out of the woodwork!

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Too bad it’s not here. I wish my daughter could benefit from having natural measles, as I did when I was six. Most hospitalization for measles is for relatively mild complications. Even back in 1960 in the US (when 99% of kids got it by 18), there was an average of 450 deaths a year, but out of four million cases, the entire birth cohort. I’m not afraid of it. Give the appropriate dose of vitamin A, don’t give any fever reducers, give enough water or other drinks, and stay in bed during the days of fever, stay at home for three weeks after the day the rash appears to give the immune system time to recover, and the well-nourished, previously healthy patient will recover just fine.

          • Proponent says:

            ciaparker2: I had shingles when my daughter was nearly two, and I deliberately gave it to her so that she would get chicken pox and have permanent immunity. She had a fever for one day and vomited, and was covered with lesions for about two weeks, but she recovered without incident, and now I don’t have to even think about chicken pox, exposure, or whether a booster may become necessary in the future.”

            … …

            Oh, and your logical fallacy is.. bare assertion.

            “This fallacy is often accompanied by a phrase such as “Trust me.” It might be considered a self-referential appeal to authority. A more rigorous and constrained discussion might allow you to ask “What
            is your evidence for that claim?” However, when bare assertions are
            constantly thrown out as red herrings, it may be best to abandon any hope of real dialogue.”

          • Justthefacts says:

            Let’s see how much of a blessing the last major outbreak of the “beneficial” measles was in the US from 1989 through 1991:

            *More than 55,000 cases of measles
            *About 11,000 were hospitalized
            *About 3,500 developed pneumonia
            *Deaths were reported to be at least 189, and were estimated to be 259 because of incomplete reporting.
            *More than 80% of the cases occurred in unvaccinated individuals.
            *About 90% of the deaths were unvaccinated individuals.
            *About 80% of the deaths were due to pneumonia and the rest were due to encephalitis.
            *100% of the 37 babies under 1 year old who died were too young to be vaccinated.
            *More than 91% of the 65 children aged 1 to 4 years old who died were unvaccinated.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Take her to a music festival in the UK. Plenty of measles there.

            “Even back in 1960 in the US (when 99% of kids got it by 18), there was
            an average of 450 deaths a year, but out of four million cases, the
            entire birth cohort. I’m not afraid of it.”
            This is one of the dumbest things you’ve ever said, cia. We know you can “live with” these 450 deaths, you’ve said so before. You don’t give a damn about the sanctity of life. You also think your witchcraft treatment will keep your daughter from dying, but you could be wrong. It’s just STUPID.

          • Cathy says:

            Beyond stupid. The witchcraft treatment and deliberately infecting C with chickenpox probably made things worse.

            I really wish Family Services would take a more active role in protecting kids like Parker’s daughter from their idiot, inbred parents.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            There is no perfect choice. So you’d rather live with causing autism in one in 40 children, asthma in one in nine, allergies in one in three, peanut allergies in one in fifty, seizure disorders in one in twenty, ADHD in one in ten. Plus all the SIDS deaths, most of which were caused by vaccine reactions. I don’t care: choose what you like.
            What do you mean, I could be wrong? Of course I could be wrong. But after having reacted to vaccines with autism and MS, my father with paralysis, you have to make vaccine decisions bearing that in mind. Do I want to see how much worse it could get if we took more vaccines? Could we die of flu since we NEVER get flu vaccines? Yes, it’s possible. Could we die or be permanently paralyzed by a flu vaccine the way my father was? Also very possible. Can I live with not being 100% certain whatever choice I make might conceivably turn out to have been a mistake? Yes, I can. I have had measles, rubella, chickenpox, pertussis, hep-A, rotavirus, and many flus: typical cases, not serious. I have MS now and I’m very fearful of what the future holds for my low-verbal autistic daughter. We would be living normal, happier lives now if we had not gotten the vaccines which disabled us.
            I would not force anyone to take or reject vaccines. I want only that they be as well-informed as possible before making the decision.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Dammit, cia, vaccines do NOT cause autism, allergies, peanut allergy (kind of a duplicate, wouldn’t you say), seizure disorders, ADHA, or SIDS.

            I don’t believe any of your stories. Your daughter was not damaged by vaccines.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Yes, the perfect choice is the measles vaccine. Its not even close.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Many thousands of us disagree. You do whatever you want, and let us do the same.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Nope, you are not entitled to spread disease just because you are a Woo selling shill and promote nonsense.

            Where were those “thousands” when anti-vaxxers needed signatures for the recall petitions in California?

            You are a marginal lunatic fringe of nonsense peddlers.

          • Justthefacts says:

            So you lie about your daughter again…..

            Here is some info which Cia has told us about her daughter:

            1. Her daughter (and the rest of the family who suffer from autism or ASD including Cia and Cia’s brother) suffer from an inherited disorder – Neurexin-1 gene deletion, a neurological disorder which usually manifests as autism (without the necessity of an precipitant trigger).

            2. Her pregnancy was complicated by prenatal hypoxia because of a true knot in the baby’s umbilical cord, necessitating emergency C-section.

            3, Her infant showed signs of post natal hypoxia (low Apgar scores at both 1 minute and 5 minutes).

            Despite these multiple reasons for neurodevelopmental problems in her child,
            Cia blames……..Vaccines.

            Utterly ridiculous.

          • David says:

            If you had measles, rubella, chickenpox, pertussis, hep a, rota virus and many flus…shouldn’t you have a superior immune system that can fight off any disease.
            Didn’t you say that getting these diseases gives you a superior immune system.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Does…not…compute…

          • Ron Roy says:

            Anyone who has a good diet can easily withstand any assault from a pathogenic germ and their immune system will be that much stronger because of it. A dairy farmer ( whose wife is in charge of a lab in a local hospital ) told me” kids brought up on a dairy farm have stronger immune systems than other kids because of their exposure to all the naturally occurring bacteria on the farm”.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You’re right! cia says that about 5 times a day, when she’s on here. Yet her immune system is totally messed up!

          • Mike Stevens says:

            They clearly starve people at music festivals. Why else would they get measles? Such a shame. Maybe you can send Red Cross parcels?

          • Kathy says:

            Cia is making stuff up again, I see. The official death risk for measles in all western countries is listed as 1-2 deaths per 1000 cases. Every single western country lists the same statistics. All of them.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Yeah, cia goes away for a couple months and comes back with the same old garbage.

          • Leslie says:

            In the US, there was approximately 1 death per 1000 REPORTED cases. Actual cases per year prior to the vaccine was about 4,000,000. Like chickenpox, most cases were not officially reported as they were considered normal childhood diseases. http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/graph-us-measles-cases

            So, the death rate was actually about 1 death per 10,000 ACTUAL cases.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Let’s see how much of a blessing the last major outbreak of the “beneficial” measles was in the US from 1989 through 1991:

            *More than 55,000 cases of measles
            *About 11,000 were hospitalized
            *About 3,500 developed pneumonia
            *Deaths were reported to be at least 189, and were estimated to be 259 because of incomplete reporting.
            *More than 80% of the cases occurred in unvaccinated individuals.
            *About 90% of the deaths were unvaccinated individuals.
            *About 80% of the deaths were due to pneumonia and the rest were due to encephalitis.
            *100% of the 37 babies under 1 year old who died were too young to be vaccinated.
            *More than 91% of the 65 children aged 1 to 4 years old who died were unvaccinated.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Since getting pneumonia in hospitals is common who’s to say that of those cases hospitalized died because of the hospitalizations and not measles.

          • Justthefacts says:

            I do believe that it was the measles that put them in the hospital to begin with……..

            When you are grasping at straws, how many do you think you catch?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            But measles is not the same thing as pneumonia. About one in twenty patients with measles gets pneumonia: it’s usually viral and self-limiting, occasionally it’s bacterial and can usually be treated with anitbiotics. That’s why the death rate for measles is so low: most of the time they recover from the pneumonia.

          • Justthefacts says:

            And 5000 per year got encephalitis, Cynthia. Explain how that is beneficial……..

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Dr. Glockler said that this was a vast exaggeration, that the real figure was one in 10,000 cases of measles got encephalitis, one in 15,000 toddlers. She said that in 1960 the prognosis for complete recovery was good (as long as no fever reducers were given). I’ve read elsewhere that about a fifth died, a fifth was brain-damaged, and the rest recovered. At a true rate of one in 10,000, that would be 40 out of four million cases: or eight deaths.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            And she knows this how?

          • ciaparker2 says:

            She had treated many measles patients herself and said she had discussed it with other physicians, who had come to this conclusion.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            LOL! Or should I say “snort”? “Came to this conclusion. The heck with the numbers from the agency charged with keeping these statistics. We’ll just go by the seat of our pants on this. Good one, cia and all your wonder doctor sources.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Did the other doctors also practice VooDoo? “Anthroposophic” meficine?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Glockler supposedly treated these cases of measles. Quite how she saw enough cases to determine the incidence of encephalitis was only 1 in 10,000, I haven’t a clue.
            In order to guauge incidence from individual experience, one would expect a numerator of at least 10-20 cases of encephalitis.
            That means Glockler would have needed to see 100-200 thousand cases of measles, all on her own, to determine the denominator.**

            But then these antivaxers are superhuman, don’t you know!

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Too funny!

          • Justthefacts says:

            Do you mean Dr. Michaela Glockler? The inventor of “Anthroposophic” meficine? That’s defined as “based on occult notions and draws on Steiner’s spiritual philosophy, which he called anthroposophy”

            So your reference is a doctor who practices “occult” medicine? She treats your “spirit”? Does she know about measles victims by checking their “spirit”?

            That’s even far for your woo based alternative crap, Cynthia.

            The lunatic fringe things you bring forward as data is always hilarious………What is next, Cynthia? VooDoo?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Glockler is a quack.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            One of the commonest complications of measles is a viral pneumonia, which can be fatal in itself. Of course, those with any parenchymal lung inflammation or infection are highly predisposed to secondary bacterial infection.
            When I was in Africa, this was the commonest cause of measles deaths, rather than encephalitis.

            The reason most kids nowadays recover from pneumonia is because of treatment with antibiotics and supportive high care – not because the pneumonia would miraculously get better on its own, Cia.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Dr. Langmuir’s chart from 1960 showing that the death rate in children between three and ten was less than one in 10,000 was presumably based on reported cases, and it was a very low death rate however you cut it.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Post this chart, cia. I want to take a look at it.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            You’re the one who said the article had good graphs. Let me look and see what page it was on.

            It’s on page 3:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1522578/pdf/amjphnation00499-0004.pdf

          • Leslie says:

            Interesting. I’ve not seen this article before. These pre-vaccine historical records can’t be rewritten by the Big Pharma shills. Clearly, this statement shows that, pre-vaccine, the desire to eradicate measles had less to do with disability and death rates and more to do with a “because we can” mentality.

            “Thus, in the United States measles is a disease whose importance is not to be measured by total days disability or number of deaths, but rather by human values and by the fact that tools are becoming available which promise effective control and early eradication. To those who ask me, “Why do you wish to eradicate measles?,” I reply with the same answer that Hillary used when asked why he wished to climb Mt. Everest. He said, “Because it is there.” To this may be added, “. . and it can be done.””

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Nope again.
            He states this was an estimate corrected for underreporting.
            And the case fatality rate in the under ones was 40 per 10,000.
            You left that out.

          • Kathy says:

            The death rate for measles, in western countries ( which you do know means more than just USA) is 1-2 cases per 1000. You and Cia can debate that until you are blue, but that is the official measles death rate.

            We cannot guess this stuff, we have to use actual data.

            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S17.long

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Even were that true (it’s not), why are you so blasé about one in 10,000 dying of measles?
            The death rate from MMR vaccine is so small as to be unmeasurable in terms of a fatality rate.
            What is the bigger number… 400-500 measles deaths a year, or maybe one vaccine death?
            Why are antivaxers so bad at math?

          • Leslie says:

            It’s been 50 years since the US has seen 400 deaths out of 4,000,000 cases. (The math hasn’t changed…still 1 in 10,000). The entire country has had less than 5 annual deaths over the last 25 years, even with most states having religious and/or personal belief exemptions. In California MMR uptake is over 95%, well within herd immunity for measles. This scare over “high numbers” of measles deaths in the US is a red herring.

            So why do pro-Pharma shills act like they’re still in middle school?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Except the outbreaks 25 years ago carried a case fatality of one in 330.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4/F3.expansion.html

            Why can’t you realise that the reason there have been so few deaths recently is because of vaccines?

            Why are antivaxers so stupid?

          • Leslie says:

            “In 1989, measles outbreaks have involved previously vaccinated school-aged children and college students, as well as unvaccinated urban preschoolers who are predominantly black and Hispanic. Large outbreaks involving minority populations are continuing in Houston, Los Angeles, and Chicago.” http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001522.htm

            So, lets take a closer look at the majority of unvaccinated cases in California during that time period. “The epidemic centered in low-income Hispanic (and Asian) communities in southern and central California. The major cause of the epidemic was low immunization levels among preschool-aged children and young adults.” Among unimmunized patients >12 months, 1.6% had PBE’s and .2% had medical exemptions. The remaining 98% simply had not been immunized. Wow, it wasn’t individuals who CHOSE to file a conscientious objection to vaccines, but simple failure for many in the community to actually get the vaccine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1022280/?page=4

            Access to medical care and sufficient nutrition was and continues to be an issue in the US among poor immigrants, hence the higher than normal death toll during that outbreak that skews the death rate during that 1988-2002 time period.

            So why are pro-Pharma shills so childish? And why would anyone believe a medical professional who is so unprofessional?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            So, 10% of the cases of measles were in African Americans, and 40% of cases were in Hispanics.

            I guess the fact that so many of the dead were from ethic minorities is OK with you then, Leslie?
            (and remember… 50% were still WASPS)

            What have I done that is so “unprofessional”?
            Produce facts, and point out your lies?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            It’s hard to tell where your copy/pasta leaves off. I’m guess right about where the post starts in “Wow”, as I’ve never seen that word used in any CDC publication that I have ever read. If the pre-schoolers weren’t actually enrolled in a program, they didn’t NEED a PBE.

            Where does your conclusion about medical care and nutrition come from, other than your colon?

          • Justthefacts says:

            So you think all of those people should just die so you don’t have to think about vaccinations? Are you racist or just xenophobic?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            So 3 per 1000 die from measles.

            Out of a 1000 MMR vaccine shots, how many die Cia?

            Answer… None.

          • David says:

            So do you suggest that no one get vaccinated and that everyone should expose their children on purpose to measles, chicken pox, diphtheria, polio etc…..so they can have nice strong immune systems when they are older.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            That’s ridiculous. When I was a child, everyone got measles, and no one I knew or ever heard of was hospitalized for it. The death rate was one in 10,000 cases. Deafness was a possible complication, but rare. In 1960, there were 450 deaths a year out of four million cases.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            So freaking what? That’s anecdotal evidence. It’s not worth the bandwidth you used to post it. You don’t know the total health history of every person you know, either.

          • VikingAPRNCNP says:

            It is appalling that you think 450 deaths per year is acceptable. Today that would be closer to 800 deaths per year.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Isn’t it? Even the wildest accusations by the AVs of death due to MMR don’t come close!

          • ciaparker2 says:

            You have to decide which is more important: four million children with healthy immune systems for life and a few deaths from measles or four million children with no measles deaths but one in forty with autism and a third of them with sometimes fatal autoimmune diseases, and most with neurological and/or autoimmune conditions caused by vaccines. I don’t care which you prefer. I prefer the latter, and I hope that my daughter will get measles and mumps: she’s already had pertussis and chickenpox. I wouldn’t force anyone to vax or not to vax: every parent must make the decision for his or her child based on what they think is more important.

          • VikingAPRNCNP says:

            You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the gluteus Maximus.

            Every single allegation you made has been debunked. You are a practitioner of the big lie school of persuasion.

          • ciaparker2 says:

            I, unlike you, am in favor of the right to choose vaccination or reject it. I wish to inform people of our experience and what I have learned so that they may make an informed decision. And the only reason why you and yours are here today, and everywhere, is that more and more people are learning about the extreme dangers of vaccines. I am not the only victim or the only messenger.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            You’re pushing woo, and you’re not making any informed decision. You’re not a victim or a messenger (of truth).

            Why did you come back after a hiatus?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            She probably was getting withdrawal symptoms from not having having advised anyone to kill a child for a while.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            What Viking said. And I’ll add, there is no, none, zip, nada evidence that measles “improves” one’s immune system. Your sanctimounious rant about what’s more important notwithstanding.

          • David says:

            Do you have proof that unvaccinated kids are less likely to get autism, autoimmune disease and neurological disease. There is no study that I have seen that shows such findings.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Hey I’ve conducted my own study do you want me to list all the people and animals, that I know of, who were harmed by vaccine in my area? None of my children and grandchildren ( accept one who is autistic because of a vaccine ) were vaccinated. None of them have any health problems. Do you want the list?

          • David says:

            I am an ophthalmologist and I have many patients that have significant vision loss from measles.

          • So….your immune system can handle the wild measles and yet can’t handle the puny attenuated version? Give over.

            As for the flu shot, not mandated by SB277. Next.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Please document your remarks about chickenpox vaccine.

          • Kathy says:

            Okay, you are sharing a video from a guy with a degree in religion, with no current job. Because he is your expert? Seriously? This is why we need vaccine mandates. Because of fools like Forrest.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            “What kind of kid did you make”

            Great job, Martin. I thought you were just dumb, but you’re a slime. Slandering other people’s kids? That’s just so, not OK. FYI, 30% of measles patients have complications, and ~20% need to be hospitalized. Go expose your snowflakes to measles virus and see what a picnic it is! You’re DISGUSTING!

        • John Smith says:

          LOl Americans are so twisted. Your government is a joke, your medical system is a joke, the people are just a bunch of complete buck tooth hillbillies.. I mean everyone.. Yet somehow, you think the country and state is a bunch of heroes. You are a piece of garbage.

        • ciaparker2 says:

          Smallpox has been gone from the earth for forty years. A doctor who diagnosed my daughter with chickenpox said he’d been really glad to see that vaccine (smallpox) no longer given, as he’d seen it cause so many severe reactions. Measles by 1960 in the US and other First World countries had become a fairly mild disease, very rarely dangerous, and actively beneficial. But you don’t care about either the terrible dangers of vaccines or the benefits of the diseases.
          And if your child is vaxxed, why would you worry about his possibly catching beneficial diseases like measles or chickenpox at school? He won’t. He’ll have his immune, neurological, and other systems damaged by vaccines, but he won’t get the beneficial diseases. So why do you want to force everyone else’s children to be damaged?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Many doctors feel that way about smallpox vaccine.

            Measles was never actively beneficial.

            Vaccines don’t damage people, cia. Knock it off. It was really nice for a while with you on some sort of “hiatus”.

          • Proponent says:

            And just when you were displaying a modicum of rational thinking..

            “I grew up after the decades of justified terror of polio, but everyone in my parents’ generation, friends, and relatives, remembered it and told me about it, and I had one roommate permanently crippled by polio. Everyone in my generation had gotten the vaccine(s), and was healthy both mentally and physically, no autism, little autoimmune disease (I had a boyfriend in second grade who had asthma), no polio (except for the roommate whose parents had refused the vaccine, and she got a crippling case of polio). Of course there are still a lot of unknowns either way, but you just have to make a decision on it, yea or nay. The polio vaccine and the tetanus vaccine appear to be the safest vaccines, although both have caused serious reactions. But the diseases can be devastating and deadly.”

            Posted by: ciaparker on (Lying) Age of Autism

          • ciaparker2 says:

            And that’s polio. I’m sure you saw that I fought very hard to remind people of how devastating polio could be. I fought hard to defend the polio vaccines as being effective and usually (not always) safe, or at least not usually obviously damaging. Most children escaped getting a clinical case, and most of those who had it were not crippled, but many thousands were. I found an Atlantic article from the ’50s with statistics on the situation before and after the vaccine, also statistics from Patenting the Sun and The Polio Years in Texas. I just commented this morning at the Washington Post saying that personally I would recommend parents consider (no compulsion) the TD series after the age of two, and IF polio came back here, and only if, then the polio series too. None of the other vaccines.

            Now please look and see if I have ever recommended any of the other vaccines. I was in a quandary about the measles vaccine for Third World children. Those who DON’T get it but get natural measles and recover (as 90% of them do) have only one-fifth the mortality in subsequent years as those who don’t get natural measles. The disease actively REALLY benefits their immune system. But overall, since the vaccine saves the lives of the weakest 10% who die of measles, more lives are saved with the vaccine than by saving the stronger children by NOT giving them the vaccine. I’d have to ultimately say to leave it to the parents’ choice: give them the available information and let them decide. That was an Aaby study in Senegal (?) Not positive about the country, I think it was Senegal.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Because nobody is getting damaged and you are a liar.

            It’s just that simple, Cynthia……..

      • Yes, they have tested it, Martin.

        If we’re engaging in medical experimentation though, please be sure to write to the Hague and let us know what they say. It’s for the kiddies, right?

      • Kathy says:

        I don’t abdicate parental responsibility to the state. I make good, sound, healthy decisions for my children all on my own. The state only needs to step in with laws for situations where parents do not make good decisions for their children. They do the same thing for animals, the elderly, the disabled, your land, roads, etc. The state mandates all sorts of behaviors with laws because a tiny percentage of people will make dumb choices unless they are required by law to do otherwise. The majority have the common sense to make the right choice in the first place.

    • Ivan Forsch says:

      Amen to that, brother.

    • spymon74666 says:

      Make sure to run out and get yourself and your children vaccinated for the dreaded zika virus!! Please hurry! Here’s an idea…volunteer yourself for testing!!! It’s the latest virus du jour our government is busy tryng to save you from! wooohooo!!!

    • AutismDadd says:

      Are you afraid you vaccinated children are at risk of catching illness they were vaccinated for?

    • DK says:

      Well Marc thank God YOUR child is safe….now how about all the vaccine injured children who are not? And how about the children who are dead? What if your child was one of those “statistics”?…if vaccines are so safe and effective then why does this exist? http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/
      I will tell you why, because they aren’t 100% safe for all children and the pharmaceutical industry is protected from vaccine injury lawsuits, even though they produce a product that is known to cause injury and death. Kinda odd isn’t it. How many other companies are protected that way? One size does not fit all. Not all children can handle the ingredients in the vaccines, but by your logic just stick your kid and hope for the best and since nothing happened to your child then I guess everyone else is wrong. Good luck with that logic.

  7. Mansour Alihosseini says:

    @Jodi Hicks more and more people choose not to vaccinate because they see more and many more children come up with autism comparing with the year 2000. Why don’t you talk about that, every action has a reaction instead of mandating these toxin injection why don’t you try to find out that why the rate of autism sky rocketing, please don’t say better diagnostic and so on for I don’t buy that because if that was true why we don’t have same amount of adults with autism comparing with kids these days.

    • Brian says:

      The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated, so it’s obvious that vaccines aren’t the cause.

      • Mansour Alihosseini says:

        it means we have %2 of the adults population with autism right?

        • Brian says:

          Yup. About that.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            why I don’t see that much. It means it should be 1 out of every 50 people I see daily should be autistic.

          • Brian says:

            Why don’t you see that? I dunno, but your lack of perception isn’t evidence. In my line of work (scientist) I’d say that far more than 2% are autistic by today’s standards, though only a few were ever diagnosed as such.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            I have been in retail business for over 15 years and I meet 500 if not more people every month. So I have to see 10 adult with autism or even other kinds of neurological disorder every month, guess what I don’t even see 1 person with problem per month. You may work in a group home that’s why you see those numbers!

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            Oh I missed the part scientist (paid by big pharmaceutical).

          • Justthefacts says:

            Why did you respond to your own post? Are you on the spectrum too?

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            “guess what I don’t even see 1 person with problem per month”

            It’s a safe bet you don’t know the diagnostic criteria for autism, and I doubt you would even recognize an adult with autism unless they told you.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            one must be so stupid after talking to some one on spectrum and do not recognize that. How do you know that I don’t know the diagnostic criteria for ASD when I live with one 24/7?

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            You think?

            I’m just going from your comments. You seem incredibly ignorant of how an adult on the spectrum presents. As the expression goes, you know one person with autism. That’s it.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            How do you know that I only know one person on spectrum. Who do you think that one person hang out when he is going out(school, Parks, Events, School trips and so many places else? I bet you have no idea unless you work with those kids.

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            I bet you have no idea unless you’ve spent time with adults with Aspergers or ASD.

            Your question: Where are all the adults with autism?

            The answer: They’re all around you.

            You don’t seem to be able to imagine a world where a large percentage of children grew up in the 60s and 70s as “late talkers” or just quirky and were never identified as actually “autistic.”.

            Judging from the various conspiracy theories and autism denier garbage on your Facebook, it just has to be some vaccine that causes autism. However, it isn’t. Autism is genetic.

            If that’s your sole objection to school vaccination requirements then home school. The state is not required to let people opt out because they choose to be ignorant.

          • Justthefacts says:

            [How do you know that I only know one person on spectrum.]

            By what you say and post. It’s obvious.

          • Tell me about me, Mansour.

          • Justthefacts says:

            That’s like saying home cats are deadly and you know because you live with a tiger.

            You don’t live with EVERYONE on the spectrum, Mr. Arrogant.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            My son has a friend who is studying maths at Oxford. He reckons around 50% of the people he meets are on the spectrum.
            See how this works now, Mansour?

          • That would make sense. I believe about 20% of the population is neurodivergent in some way but of course, the traditionally seen-as-nerdy fields tend to attract people on the spectrum.

            I mean: Socially awkward, obsessed with one particular thing, scatter-brained for everything else, vaguely creepy in a harmless sort of way? Yeah….there’s a reason that’s how people describe nerds.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            “vaguely creepy”?
            Heh!

            (_(
            (=’ :’)=
            (, (“)(“)

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Sounds like a lot of the people I went to school with back in the 50s/60s.

          • Nice bunny rabbit. But yeh, “Vaguely creepy in a harmless sort of way.” Because when confronted with someone that looks like you, your brain expects them to think like you. When they don’t (or give off “acting unnaturally” signals) – your brain throws up an error signal and we tend to call “gave me an error signal”….well, we tend to label the error message as one of three things: “creepy” or “off” or “weird” ….depending on how threatened we felt by the error signal.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Oh brother a sermon from the preacher. Too bad its meaningless prattle.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            How do you know that? You show them merchandise, answer a few questions, take their money. What does that have to do with assessing someone for neurological disorders?

          • Let’s see:

            How many “absent-minded professor” types do you meet?

            How many “socially awkward scientist” types do you meet?

            How many people who are just vaguely “creepy”?

            How many people do you meet who don’t quite meet your eyes?

            As for having to see 10 adults with autism a month? Erm, no. I think you’ll find your profession does not expose you to a representative sample. You work in retail. You do understand what online shopping is and how it might be relevant to this conversation, right?

            When do you work? Busy times?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            You know Mansour, the more I reflect upon the characteristics of those who are on what some term the “higher functioning” side of the spectrum, the more people I appreciate fall into the spectrum.
            I work in healthcare as a consultant physician, and recognise these traits in some of my colleagues, and many other HCWs, as well as among my friends outside of work.

          • Justthefacts says:

            You probably don’t know the number of gay people you meet either because it’s none of you business. People on the ASD spectrum don’t wear signs.

            Stop bringing up your personal experience like it has any relevance in the total world. Your observations are “anecdotal”. look it up.

          • Ken S. says:

            People on the ASD spectrum don’t wear signs.

            Not yet, they don’t! #trump2016

          • Ron Roy says:

            I agree with you. I had a variety store for 19 years where I would see 3 to 4 hundred people per day and I rarely saw any adult with any mental disability.

          • Kathy says:

            I live near several group homes for mentally disabled adults. I see them at the grocery store or the park, with their aides, all the time. The rate of autism today is not that different from rate of mental retardation 50 years ago.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Oh yes it is. As usual you are lying through your teeth.

          • Kathy says:

            The current rate of autism in USA is 1:68 which is 1.47%. In the 1960s, the mental retardation rate in USA was 1-3%.

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8749.1997.tb07395.x/pdf

          • Reality022 says:

            ♫Ding!♫
            We have a winnah!!
            Give that lady a Seee-Gar!

          • Martin Matthews says:

            NOW we know why your impossibly stuck to Vax, you’re a scientist that knows better! Good luck with your Vax experiment!

          • Reality022 says:

            It is ASD. It is a spectrum. Many are walking between classes at your local college. Many are building your houses, fixing your cars, etc. The diagnoses for autism has greatly expanded in the last 30 years which explains why there is a large increase in reported cases.
            You don’t think that all persons with autism were like in Rain Man or worse, did you? Most wouldn’t qualify for the diagnoses back in the early 1980s.

            Get up to speed.

          • Justthefacts says:

            In 2012, I was just a PhD engineer living my life and then suddenly in 2013, I became autistic. Nothing happened to me but the DSM-5 redefined a few minor learning disabilities as ASD.

            The autistic are all around you. You just think they are normal (because they ARE NORMAL)

            That is only one reason for the non-increase in autism……….

          • Ken S. says:

            Maybe I’m taking it too literally, but “people one sees daily” is a group that is weighted towards some people and against others, so it’s far from being an average sample.

          • Not just that though. Mansour works in retail. Which, really? That’s just about the worst place I can imagine, after school so I suspect that his job would be weighted away from meeting people on the spectrum – particularly, if he tends to work during “rush shopping hour.” so…there’s that.

          • Why you don’t see that much? Simple – some learn to be actors. Also, you work in retail.

      • Zezinik says:

        Its not just about autism.. There are plenty of neurologic issues and injuries that occur along with digestive and immune problems.. Vision, hearing, and skin disorders and oh don’t forget how many deaths are caused by vaccines yet its covered up as SIDS… Get off your high horse and educate yourself Brian.

        • Brian says:

          If anything, vaccines reduce the risk of SIDS. It’s basic math.

          • Martin Matthews says:

            Ooops, your error – it seems Vax reactions account for much of what’s been strategically labeled SIDS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyGHLxUUAO4

          • Brian says:

            You should learn the difference between “adverse effect” and “adverse event”.

            The aren’t the same thing, and confounding the two make you look ignorant.
            Also, youtube videos aren’t evidence.

          • Martin Matthews says:

            Good luck with your vaccines!

          • Brian says:

            Good luck with your pro-disease advocacy!

          • Reality022 says:

            Yep, and just like in the cartoons you anti-vaccine loons watch Saturday mornings the evil perpetrators print their evil plan for all to read and, in fact, include the blueprint in every box of its product – all while twirling their moustaches and snickering, “Nyah-ah-ahhhh!!!!”

            .
            Of course they pick the Tripedia insert but don’t tell you the Tripedia vaccine was discontinued in 2011 and Daptacel, and Infanrix were the recommended replacements:
            ashp(dot)org/menu/DrugShortages/DrugsNoLongerAvailable/bulletin.aspx?id=764
            .
            Tripedia link:
            fda(dot)gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf
            .
            They forgot to tell you that the Tripedia insert also includes this caveat about adverse events, also found on page 11 with the autism adverse event: “Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.”

            An adverse event does not mean the vaccine caused it. It only means it happened after the administration of the vaccine. That’s why they’ve also included death due to auto accident and death due to drowning as adverse events Surely both those were caused by the Tripedia vaccine .

            So telll us Martin, do you believe the vaccine caused death due to “auto accident” or due to “drowning”? They are both listed as adverse events and you seem to believe that being listed as such makes the vaccine the cause of the event.

            Are they caused by the vaccine, Martin?
            Do tell.

          • Also, Wakefield published his fraudulent research paper in 1998 – the paper was retracted in 2010.

            Isn’t it possible that the insert had already been mostly written by that point, if it was published in 2011?

          • Reality022 says:

            The Tripedia insert states it was “as of December 2005”.
            I suspect Sanofi decided not to update it since it wasn’t required legally and they knew they were taking it off market in 2011.

            BTW, sia/OOPIT – I see you’ve a new nom de Disqus. Congratulations, that should drive the anti-vax loons to distraction.
            If it doesn’t give anything away, what does the “PTW” part stand for?

          • PTW = Poisoning the Well. It’s a reference to the logical fallacy.

          • Reality022 says:

            Ah.
            I kinda’ liked OOPIT because it always gave me a laugh to see the announcement appear under a post that “One other person is typing” which let me say in my mind – “OOPIT sure is busy today.”, or if the announcement just hung there for a long time – “Come on, OOPIT, finish your thought…”

            Have fun.

          • It may come back again, later on.

          • Reality022 says:

            Hmmmm.
            “The rate of SIDS observed in the US open-label safety study was 0.8/1000 vaccinated infants and the reported rate of SIDS in the US from 1985-1991 was 1.5/1000 live births

            Gee. According to the confession in the Tripedia insert, the SIDS rate in the US was:
            – 1.5/1000 for the general population – vaccinated and unvaxxed
            – 0.8/1000 for the vaccinated population
            Wow!!!!11!!!!!!
            The conspiracy is that the vaccinated have a SIDS rate about 1/2 that of the background rate. It is almost as if the vaccine is protective for SIDS!!!!111!!!!!!

            I’m so glad the anti-vaccine cultists believe these inserts represent absolute 100% truth by the evil Big pHARMA Overlords since the magic “Troof” spell takes over when they are writing these inserts.

            There you have it anti-vaxxers! Your own sources show that the Tripedia vaccine greatly reduces the rate of SIDS.
            Thanks for bringing this important information to light, doofuses.

          • “Adverse events without regard to causality” – explain that sentence in your own words, please.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dd5ea9f24bc48c7848dd07e8efba5adf670d600f9cae3e41c668ef09486ad914.jpg

        • Reality022 says:

          Zezinik whispered conspiritorially, “and oh don’t forget how many deaths are caused by vaccines yet its covered up as SIDS…”

          Oh my! An anti-vaccinationist inventing a conspiracy theory to try to explain why the facts don’t align with her delusion.
          Colour me surprised.

          Please tell us how many deaths in children were caused by vaccines last year, Zezinik. Please provice evidence for your claim from 1st tier science/medical sources. Looney, crackpot conspiracy websites such as Gnatural Gnus, Merde-ola, National Vaccine (dis)Information Center, GreenMeddisInfo, InfoWarts, etc. are not allowed.

          Please produce evidence for your claim, not unevidenced wacky conspiracy theory.

          Thanyouverymuch.

        • And yet SIDs occurs more in unvaccinated children.

          File a FOI request if you’re that concerned though.

      • Martin Matthews says:

        Now YOU are the one cutting and pasting utter 100% bullshit..no such study has ever been conducted. (Who’s paying you to post here?)

        • Brian says:

          Nobody’s paying me to acknowledge reality. Tons of studies have been done!
          …by independent researchers all over the world
          …looking at vaccines both individually and in combination
          …and those studies have been independently replicated.

          Anyone who tells you no study has ever been done is not only ignorant, but ignorant of their own ignorance. Here’s a few of those studies.

          —Taylor et al. (1999) studied 498 children in the UK showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
          —Makela et al. (2001) studied 500,000 children in Finland showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
          —Madsen et al. (2002) studied 500,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
          —Hviid et al. (2003) studied 450,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism based on thimerosal in vaccines
          —Verstraeten et al. (2003) studied 125,000 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism and other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines
          —Miller et al. (2004) studied 100,000 children in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines
          —DeStefano et al. (2004) studied 2,500 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
          —Smeeth et al. (2004) studied 5000 people in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on vaccination
          —Honda et al. (2005) studied 300,000 people in Japan showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
          —Fombonne et al. (2006) studied 28,000 children in Canada showing no difference in autism rates and other developmental disorders based on vaccination
          —Richler et al. (2006) studied 300 people with autism in the U.S. and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination
          —Uchiyama et al (2007) studied 900 people with autism in Japan and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination
          —Price et al. (2010) and DeStefano et al. (2013) studied 1000 children in the U.S. and found no difference in either classical or regressive autism rates, or other forms of ASD, based on thimerosal or other ingredients in vaccines
          —Kuwaik et al. (2014) studied autism rates among those who had older siblings with autism, showing no difference based on vaccination even with genetic predispositions to autism
          —Jain et al. (2015) replicated the study with far more people and got the same result
          —Baxter et al. (2015) showed that, when using the same diagnosis criteria, the autism rate was the same 25 years ago as it is today
          —Gadad et al. (2015) showed no difference in autism rates in rhesus monkeys based on vaccination, and their brains were dissected just to make certain. Also, this study was funded by anti-vaccine groups

        • Reality022 says:

          Autism is caused by cell/smart phones and wifi.
          Prior to the introduction of wireless tech autism rates were low. Then cell phones were introduced and the autizmz rate started to take off.
          By the late 1990s and 2000s wireless was everywhere and teh autzmz rate had skyrocketed… and here we are.

          The correlation between cell phones and wifi with autizmz is nearly +1.0.

          It is so obvious that this is what is causing teh autizmz that every anti-vaccinationist should immediately throw away their cell/smart phones and stop using wifi. Go back to CAT5 which is safe or just disconnect from the internet.

          Vaccines don’t cause teh autizmz, cell phones do.

    • Ivan Forsch says:

      Stuart Duncan at Autism from a Father’s Point of View had the best answer to this question ever.

      My grandmother once asked me “Why are there so many more people with autism now than there used to be?”

      I thought about that for a second, and decided to answer her question with a question. “Grandma,” I said, “when you went to school, did you have a ‘special education’ class?”

      She said “Oh yes, well, actually there was a trailer, separate from the school.”

      I asked her “What did people say was wrong with those kids? Why were they separated off into a trailer?” …See More

      In Grandma’s case, it was a legitimate question from a reasonable person. In your case, I’m thinking not.

      • Reality022 says:

        My high school in the 1960s & 1970s had an entire school building sitting at the south campus that was for the district’s intellectually impaired (“retards” back then), blind, deaf, etc.
        By the early 1980s it had been converted into the district offices.
        Something about vaccines preventing…

        ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it’

    • So….more and more people choose not to vaccinate because they can’t be bothered to critically think? What informed consent can be interfered with?

    • “Why we don’t have the same amount of adults with autism”? We do. Read the British study where they compared adults to children yet?

  8. pHarma says:

    The missing context in the exemption rise is the increase both the ACIP recommended and the school required vaccines. CA requires 16 injections for Kindergarten entry. 5 DTaP, 4 Injected Polio, 2 MMR, 3 Hepatitis B, and 2 Chicken Pox. Chicken Pox has doubled the exemption use in many states when added. The recommended schedule is up to 17 injections & 3 oral doses birth to 24 months. The other clarification is to look at the population of the counties being used as examples of “high percentage districts”. They are all very small. One of the CA Counties has only 24 Kindergartners, where one child missing a single injection gives it a 4% exemption rate.
    The justification for not sticking with the previous bill does not hold up to close scrutiny. The “high exemption” rate claims are caused by calling anyone who has less than 16/16 injections “exempt”, and using percentage measurement in unrepresentatively small populations.

    • Sonja Henie says:

      So you’re afraid of shots.

    • bilingualmom says:

      Excellent post. But you know that no matter what facts you present people like “Sonja”, “Mike Stevens”, “Just the Facts”, and “Kathy”, who show up everywhere on every single vaccine article and have thousands of comments under their belt, they will not acknowledge them.

      You know you really have them when they switch to calling names and saying stupid things like “so you’re afraid of shots”. 🙂

  9. Warrior_Mama says:

    Pan says AB2109 didn’t work. He’s lying. Vaccinations went up to over 98% in CA after that law passed and it was only in effect less than a year. Regarding Jodi Hicks’ statement that the law was thoroughly vetted in the senate and assembly: the vetting process was a joke and an embarrassment. I was there. So was she, in Pan’s ear the day this law almost got voted into the garbage can. And regarding Hicks’ comment that parents don’t vaccinate because of ‘the Internet and celebrities’… How does one even respond to something so stupid?

    • kfunk937 says:

      “Warrior Mama,” a dog-whistle if I ever saw one. How does one even respond to something so stupid?

    • Kathy says:

      There were schools with as high as 40% unvaxed, in California, before 2b277. Clearly, AB2109 was not working enough.

      Jodi Hicks’ daughter is Dr Pan’s patient and she is a seasoned lobbyist. She has no pharma clients, by the way. She knows what she is doing. She helped get the bill passed!

  10. Brian says:

    Year after year after year, and anti-vaxxers are still clinging to the same debunked conspiracies.

    Dear anti-vaxxers: if you wish to be taken seriously, you have to maintain a minimal amount of honesty and rational thinking.

    • Martin Matthews says:

      Hey Brian…if YOU want to be taken seriously perhaps you’d show EVIDENCE to parents that what you advocate won’t HARM their children, that what you believe they should inject into the bloodstream of their child has been proven to be safe, proven to actually be effective. Can you do that? If not, how does that NOT make you quite evil? Kindly explain…

      • Brian says:

        There’s tons of evidence for the safety and efficacy of vaccines! All vaccines have been extensively tested. Which particulars would you like to see?

        And vaccines aren’t injected into the bloodstream. Whoever told you that they are might need a refresher in anatomy.

        • Mansour Alihosseini says:

          And there are tons of evidences on Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System government website shows Vaccine harms.

          • Brian says:

            Do you know the meaning of the term “adverse event”?

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            Adverse event is any undesirable experience associated with the use of a medical product(vaccine) in a patient.

          • Brian says:

            Question: Does an “adverse event” mean that the undesirable experience was caused by the vaccine? yes or no?

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            They don’t want to admit it because it is going to cost them lots of money.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            Why vaccine manufacturer are immune from any law suit? If their product does not cause any harm why the government decide to protect them?

          • Brian says:

            And once again, you run away and change the subject.

            By definition, an “adverse event” makes no claim to causality.

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            Why because they say so, it does and they don’t want to admit it believe it or not.

          • Brian says:

            It’s the definition of the term.

          • Reality022 says:

            The facts don’t align with your opinion so you’re inventing a conspiracy to explain the facts away?
            How unusual for an anti-vaccinationist.
            Knock me over with a feather.

          • Let’s talk about SIDs, shall we? Listed as an adverse event (because, duh. It’s a diagnosis of exclusion) but if vaccines caused SIDs then you’d expect a rise in SIDs in vaccinated children (Correlation is necessary but insufficient for causation) and yet, vaccinated children have LESS SIDs.

            Want to explain that one?

          • Justthefacts says:

            Hoe about admitting you were wrong 3 strawmen ago…..

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Because they’re not. Vaccines, like a lot of other products, have “limited liability”.

          • Leslie says:

            When a patient has an “adverse event” to a drug, it is listed in their medical file that they should not get that drug anymore. “Adverse events” are not listed as a medical reason by the CDC for cessation of a vaccine. Virtually no reason is allowed for cessation of vaccines according to the CDC schedule, which includes “cancer vaccines” Hep B and HPV. In fact, even cancer patients are directed to get vaccines BEFORE they undergo chemotherapy.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            ” “Adverse events” are not listed as a medical reason by the CDC for cessation of a vaccine.”

            The Hell. From the CDC’s contraindication table, for every vaccine:
            “Severe allergic reaction (e.g., anaphylaxis) after a previous dose or to a vaccine component”, plus more specific contraindications for each vaccine. Learn to read.
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/admin/contraindications-vacc.html

            Now, if you want to say that your kid got a sore arm and should never get another vaccine of any type, ever, you’re correct.

          • Leslie says:

            Doesn’t say “adverse events”. Severe allergic response is listed as life-threatening.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094739/

            Mysteriously, having had the disease isn’t listed as a contraindication. Having adequate titers isn’t listed as a contraindication. In fact hyperimmunization isn’t listed as a contraindication. So someone with a hyperimmunization response has to almost die before they qualify for a cessation of the vaccine according to the CDC.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Did you see this: “Consult the main contraindications page for links to other contraindications and precautions materials.”

            For many vaccines, having had the disease is NOT a contraindication, e.g. Hib, pertussis, tetanus, and others. What is a “hyperimmunization response”?

          • Leslie says:

            Having had viral diseases, such as measles, is not considered a contraindication by the CDC.

            Hyperimmunization is the presence of a larger than normal number of antibodies to a specific antigen . This creates a state of immunity greater than normal. Immune system overactivity can cause many different diseases. http://m.authorstream.com/presentation/drshankarreddy-1099155-hyperimmunization/

          • Sonja Henie says:

            I really think you know as much about that as you do about Salk polio vaccine and acellular pertussis vaccine. In over 40 years of giving immunizations, I never heard of that.

            “It is better to keep your mouth (keypad) shut and be thought a fool than to (post) and remove all doubt”. Mark Twain-revised.

          • Leslie says:

            That’s because you’re not an M.D. specializing in immunology or infectious diseases.

          • Ivan Forsch says:

            Oh, are you pretending to be an MD now, troll?

          • Leslie says:

            No. I’m not & never claimed to be. But medical professionals shouldn’t claim something doesn’t exist cuz they’ve never heard of it. A simple google search of medical websites describes it: https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001361.htm

          • Ivan Forsch says:

            Wow. Congratulations, I guess. A simple Google search and presto-magico, you know as much as any M.D. or immunologist.

            And you wonder why everyone who reads your pathetic comments thinks you’re a fυcking retard.

          • Ivan Forsch says:

            Wow. Congratulations, I guess.

            A simple Google search and presto-magico! You know as much as any MD or immunologist.

          • Leslie says:

            Apparently, I knew more about it than you or Sonja 🙂

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Snort! Once again, showing your total ignorance.
            http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/a/anti_hla_hyperimmunization/intro.htm
            “A rare condition the patient develops an increased level of anti-HLA
            antigens – it is usually seen in patients with chronic kidney failure
            who have undergone many transfusions and hemodialysis.
            More detailed information about the symptoms,
            causes, and treatments of Anti-HLA hyperimmunization is available below.”

            On the other hand, it might be good for you.
            http://bf-sci.com/?page_id=44

            Give it up, Leslie. That’s why I never heard about it in my career as an immunization provider.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            ETA: Here’s where Leslie heard about it:
            http://www.tacanow.org/family-resources/what-autism-symptoms-mean/
            “Weak or hyper-immune systems are equally bad.”
            This TACA group seems to be related to (Lying) Age of Autism.
            http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/05/talk-about-curing-autism-statement-on-vaccine-autism-injury-awards.html

          • Leslie says:

            Sorry Sonja. You’re wrong. I discovered it doing my own research. You make a lousy psychic.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            LOL, “research”. Where’s your lab?

          • Justthefacts says:

            AoA as a source. really?

          • Leslie says:

            Anti-HLA hyperimmunization is one type of hyperimmunization reaction.

            But when determining antibody levels in general: “Increased levels of IgG can indicate chronic liver disease, autoimmune diseases, hyperimmunization reactions, or certain chronic infections, such as tuberculosis or sarcoidosis.” http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Immunoelectrophoresis.aspx

          • Sonja Henie says:

            LOL, no link I see.

          • Leslie says:

            Look again. I had to repost it cuz it wouldn’t paste. Sometimes I hate this tablet.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Big whoop. Mike explained it well.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Perhaps as a UK specialist in infectious diseases I can be permitted to add:

            “Hyperimmunisation” from vaccination is not a problem in clinical practice.

            If you think a vaccine given to someone who previously had the infection is dangerous, then I guess you must regard repeat natural exposure to the infections as being highly lethal.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            I am so glad you chimed in here, Mike.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Only briefly, I hope.
            I have the Olympic opening ceremony to watch!

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Likewise!

          • Leslie says:

            Then perhaps you should consult with Dr. D Shankar Reddy who did a whole presentation on Hyperimmunization and the overreactive immune response to vaccines that is associated with diseases. http://m.authorstream.com/presentation/drshankarreddy-1099155-hyperimmunization/

            Isn’t that what happened when they decided to give high titer measles vaccines when terrible results?

          • Mike Stevens says:

            I note how you avoided the point about re-exposure to natural infections, Leslie. You antivaxers always say that this is a more potent stimulus of immunity than is a vaccine (except when it scuppers your own arguments, like now).

            Hyperimmunity is not a clinical state induced by vaccination against an antigen in an already immune subject. Not even your source (“Dr Reddy”) says so. Clearly you are just cherry-picking the odd word out of his presentation that you think you may recognise, without understanding what he (or the rest of medical science) is saying.

            If by “high titer measles” vaccine you are referring to Aaby’s West African studies, the answer is “no”.
            Please note that:
            1. The immunopathogenetic mechanism for this had nothing to do with “hyperimmunisation”.
            2. “High titer” measles vaccination worked, just not as well as lower titer vaccination in that clinical setting. So yes there were more deaths from measles in the high titer group than the low titer group, but still far fewer deaths than in the “no measles vaccine” group.

          • kfunk937 says:

            Plus apparently, prior exposure to other equatorial viruses may be a risk factor for contracting zika.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Nothing in there about vaccines.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Shankear Reddy made up that term. It not a medical term.
            It’s nonsense.

          • Leslie says:

            It is a medical term. You’re full of….nonsense.

            It’s a term that’s been around since the 1960’s. Medline Plus describes it as: “Hyperimmunization is the presence of a larger than normal number of antibodies to a specific antigen. This creates a state of immunity that is greater than normal. Immune system overactivity can cause many different diseases.”

            Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology acknowledges the medical term. “Adverse Reactions To Pneumovax Pneumococcal Vaccine-cases Of Hyperimmunization?”

          • Yes. Severe allergic response is not an adverse event. It’s either an adverse reaction or a life-threatening side effect, depending on exactly what the patient is allergic to.

          • No, it’s not. That’s either an adverse reaction or a bad side effect.

          • Leslie says:

            Play semantics all you want. Either way, it’s still listed in their medical file that a patient is not to get that drug anymore. However, having a “non-life threatening” adverse event, adverse reaction, bad side effect, etc. to a vaccine WILL NOT justify a cessation of that vaccine according to the CDC or ACIP.

          • Actually, it’s not.

            And it isn’t semantics, it is a crucial difference.

            As for bad side effects, yes it is. Moderate-but-frightening side effects are not covered, of course.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            This may be illustrative. It explains how an adverse “event” is derived from clinical research and has no assumption of causation.
            https://hub.ucsf.edu/sites/hub.ucsf.edu/files/6.%20Adverse%20Eventsd%20Definitions.pdf

          • Reality022 says:

            Mansour,
            Please go here: vaers.hhs(dot)gov/data/index
            and read the first sentence of the VAERS data page.
            What does it say?
            “When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established.
            Please explain to the class what you think this statement means about raw VAERS data and reported adverse events.

            Readers should ask:
            What part of “no cause-and-effect relationship has been established” do anti-vaccine cultists not understand?
            Are they all illiterate or merely outrageous liars?

            Raw VAERS data cannot be used to say a vaccine caused anything.
            Those who try to pass off VAERS data as fact are lying to you or are completely illiterate ignoramuses. That whole VAERS entry webpage is one massive warning to not do what they are doing.
            The entire VAERS data entry page is just one big disclaimer about the unsuitability of the raw data to determine causality. Scientist already know that an open reporting system like VAERS is incapable of deciding issues. It is impossible by its very nature.

            Why do anti-vaccinationists constantly lie?

          • Mansour Alihosseini says:

            then why pay to those family if it was not the vaccine?

          • Justthefacts says:

            One in one million are injured which means that vaccines are 2000 safer than going in to your bathroom.

            What is your empty point?

          • Indeed. 33,000 people are injured every year whilst using the toilet. Clearly, the bathroom is a death trap and RBEs/PBEs to allow kids to crap on the floor should be allowed.

          • Justthefacts says:

            You need better numbers. The CDC reported 234,094 bathroom injuries treated in emergency rooms in 2008.

            I challenge any anti-vaxxer to identify any “activity” of any kind with less confirmed injuries than vaccinations. The only one I have found that’s close is 695 video game injuries in five years. With about 150 million people playing, that is slightly less than the vaccine injury rate.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            It’s “no-fault”. Surely you are aware of that principle. It avoids a protracted fight on both sides.

      • Mike Stevens says:

        Perhaps you’d like CNN rather than the scientific papers, seeing as how you struggle with their interpretation so badly…
        http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/01/health/vaccines-for-kids-safe/

  11. Ivan Forsch says:

    as it gets closer to the first day of scool and the realittle sinks in

    pfft. Obviously it hasn”t, if anyone still thinks either of these lawsuits has a snowball’s chance.

    • ~ liz ~ says:

      In the Estepp case, Judge Sabraw denied the request for a Temporary Restraining Order without even having to consider the merits. The Motion was “facially and procedurally defective.”

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/r433bnyvjeyqby0/gov.uscourts.casd.507655.4.0.pdf?dl=0

      That’s a fairly good indicator or what direction the hearing on August 12 is going.

    • AutismDadd says:

      Not when its rigged no.

      • Justthefacts says:

        Are you talking a about a conspiracy, Troll?

        • AutismDadd says:

          What about the Wakefield conspiracy you are obsessed with?

          • Justthefacts says:

            That’s your conspiracy, troll. The rest of the world confirmed him as a fraud and that is no secret.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Ah no goof, it was Brian Deer’s conspiracy contrived while he was in the employment of the BMJ

          • Ken S. says:

            Good thing Brian Deer wasn’t hired to mutilate the bowels of young children like Wakefield was.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Did Wakefield himself do that procedure or was it one of the 12 other medical professionals? Hilarious how you shills ignore how medical professionals make mistakes and instead live in a fantasy world where patients and consumers are never harmed by treatments and procedures, but then want to say one man is guilty of dozens of crimes.

          • Ken S. says:

            I don’t know if he did them personally, but I hold him responsible as the architect of that destructive shill study. It was not medical professionals making mistakes — it was an unnecessary and invasive procedure used to manufacture phony evidence for the preordained conclusion his patron wanted.

            Also, would you care to provide a shred of evidence that I’m being paid other than that I don’t believe liars and frauds?

          • AutismDadd says:

            Listen to the fool calling everything a conspiracy as he himself uses nothing but conspiracy lingo to describe it. Hilarious, grab a bloody brain MR.

          • Ken S. says:

            It’s already been established that Wakefield was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to fabricate evidence for trial lawyers. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a known fact. He is a fraud who caused the unnecessary invasion and injury of children’s bowels for profit.

            I think I had a head MRI back in May or June, but I haven’t read the report lately.

          • Indeed, MR. Wakefield.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            Said AutismDud:
            “Did Wakefield himself do that procedure or was it one of the 12 other medical professionals?”

            I thought the GMC hearing covered these unsavoury episodes of child abuse that he directed under the guise of “research”.
            I hate to Godwin, but perhaps a Nurenberg type trial would have been more appropriate for him.

          • Justthefacts says:

            there is no end to your conspiracy theories. You and Ron Roy has brothers.

          • AutismDadd says:

            More nonsense from twistthefacts

          • Justthefacts says:

            Yes, your conspiracy theories are nonsense.

  12. forvaccinesafety says:

    The federal government has made a tacit admission that vaccines are not safe in the passage of the 1986 National Childhood Vaccination Injury Act.
    The Supreme Court admitted vaccines are unavoidably unsafe in the Bruesewitz v Wyeth decision.

    • Brian says:

      Eating is not safe, but just like vaccines, it’s a lot safer than the alternative.

    • Kathy says:

      No, they said that vaccines are so important that the fact that they are not 100% safe is okay because benefits outweigh risks and serious side effects are extremely rare. FACTS MATTER.

      • forvaccinesafety says:

        The FACT is that no one can accurately predict who will be profoundly injured or killed by a vaccine or combination of vaccines.

        • ~ liz ~ says:

          The risk of a serious reaction is less than 1 in a million.

          Here’s the part you may want to try to wrap your feeble brain around: No one can accurately predict who will be profoundly injured or killed by a vaccine preventable disease. That’s why in this country, state legislatures have the right to impose “public health measures” such as school vaccination mandates.

          If you don’t want to vaccinate your little snowflake, don’t. Homeschool them. That’s what the California Legislature has decided.

        • Kathy says:

          That is true. But you also cannot predict who will be profoundly injured or killed by a VPD. So, if we look at numbers, you can analyze risks. Before vaccines, in the 1950s, we had a higher incidence of measles than at any time in 20th century. 500 a year died, several thousand a year were permanently injured, 30% of cases had complications. Out of 500,000 reported cases a year, that means 150,000 a year suffered complications. From just that one VPD. Today, with vaccines, we compensate about 150 vaccine injury claims a year.

          Measles
          150,000 injuries a year
          2000 permanent injuries a year
          500 deaths a year

          All vaccines
          150 injuries a year

          Hm, do you need me to explain further?

          • forvaccinesafety says:

            Informed consent is the gold standard in medicine.
            Government coercion is a violation of that standard.

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            Only in your delusional, through the looking glass world, dear.

            More than 100 years of case law backs state vaccination mandates. State legislatures – not individuals – have the right to determine public health policy.

            If you don’t want to vaccinate your little snowflake, then don’t. Home school them. That’s your choice, and it’s entirely within the rights of the Legislature to make vaccination a requirement.

          • forvaccinesafety says:

            No snow in August.
            But there are fraud lawsuits against vaccine manufacturers currently.

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            I think what you meant to say is that you don’t have children of school age and you don’t live within a thousand miles of California.

            Your uninformed, pointless whining is just that.

          • forvaccinesafety says:

            The fraud lawsuits don’t make a good case for you, Liz.

          • ~ liz ~ says:

            The takeaway from this story is that any idiot can file a lawsuit.

            I’d ask if you have anything relevant to add to this discussion, but the answer is already quite obvious.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            This is Grace Dipsh*t?

          • Proponent says:

            Yes, it is.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Spare me!

          • Kathy says:

            how do we know?

          • Kathy says:

            I don’t think this is grace. Grace doesn’t use such big words, at least she never did when she posted as Grace.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            I disagree. Which big words do you mean? GraceD(ip)S(hit) was always talking about informed consent, a concept she obviously doesn’t understand, and coercion, also the Merck mumps lawsuit that has yet to go to court.

          • Kathy says:

            “tacit admission”

            “Informed consent is the gold standard in medicine.
            Government coercion is a violation of that standard.”

            Grace was just more naive and simplistic a poster.

            I could be wrong.

          • Proponent says:

            It is graceds; aka Ct1297, aka Ct1298; aka some other usernames.. and now currently; vaccineforsafety, Kathy.

            I’ve viewed her profile and name changes that have occurred via her commenst/posts on vaccine articles for the past few months or so.

          • Kathy says:

            oh is “vaccinesafety” grace? *snort*

          • Ah, so have the manufacturers been found guilty?

          • Oh? There are fraud lawsuits – what was the judgement in them?

          • Boris Ogon says:

            But there are fraud lawsuits against vaccine manufacturers currently.

            Well, I can think of one off the top of my head. Could you please name two?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            It can snow in August in the Colorado mountains and many other places.

          • Ron Roy says:

            If I forcibly vaccinate a pediatrician would that be assault?

          • Boris Ogon says:

            If I forcibly vaccinate a pediatrician would that be assault?

            That depends on the relevant state’s definitions of “assault” and/or “battery.” I suspect that there are more immediate sources of this information, though; if you were planning to do this locally, you could have simply checked with the police department.

          • Ron Roy says:

            And if they say yes does that mean the state of California is contributing to the assault of babies? I see you refuse to say yes or no.

          • Mike Stevens says:

            How many strawmen do you keep in your closet, Ron?

          • Kathy says:

            If you run a hospital and require said pediatrician-employee to be vaccinated for employment, that would not be coercion nor would it be force. Said pediatrician does not have to take the job with you. Just like you can homeschool your unprotected children.

          • Of course, if it was counted as co-ercion legally then that would fall under “duress” – so I wonder if Ron Roy can link us to any lawsuits of that nature where the employee prevailed in their claim of duress? After all, he must be able to if he knows it’s coercion.

          • Kathy says:

            Not only has not one legal challenge to vaccine mandates ever won, in USA, but Patricia Finn, the attorney on the Doe v Merck lawsuit just filed, has lost all her legal challenges to mandates. One wonders how she can have a practice devoted to vaccine injury when she keeps losing cases.

          • Ken S. says:

            Because she doesn’t have to win to get paid. Being a lawyer who routinely takes bad cases is sort of like being a naturopath — you can make a lot of money without actually helping a single person.

          • Kathy says:

            You have informed consent with vaccines. That argument you antivaxers make is silly. No one is coercing you.

          • Ron Roy says:

            In some states were still free to say no however doctors are coerced, by insurance companies and the medical establishments they’re affiliated with, into refusing service to those who refuse to poison/ vaccinate their kids.

          • Kathy says:

            I highly doubt doctors are coerced to stop serving the unvaxed. They probably don’t want to join Dr Bob Sears in having a measles outbreak start with their unvaxed patient.

            *we’re

          • Sonja Henie says:

            The office where I worked had their share of the unvaxxed. We also had loads of “selective vaxxers”. As long as the doctor documents that the vaccines were offered and the patient/parent refused them, there’s no problem.

          • Kathy says:

            Some doctors have policies to not serve those who refuse vaccines. I highly doubt they are coerced by anyone to do so. So silly.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Yeah, we toyed with that idea, but most of the docs didn’t really want to go that far. Certainly there was no pressure to do so by any outside source, like so many of these AVs allege.

          • Ron Roy says:

            So a baker is fined by the government for refusing to bake a cake for religious reasons but a doctor who is supposed to, according to his oath, treat the sick can turn someone away because they refuse to vaccinate?

          • Kathy says:

            You are not a protected class.

          • Ron Roy says:

            The public is a protected class.

          • Kathy says:

            People who chose not to protect their children from preventable diseases are not a protected class of citizens.

          • Ron Roy says:

            By not vaccinating they’re protecting the from: Autism ( and many other brain / emotional disorders ) diabetes, CIDP, MS and other myelin sheath destroying disorders, cancers, fibromialgia and other mitochondrial disorders etc.

          • Kathy says:

            No, they are not, because unvaxed can get all of those health issues.

          • Kathy says:

            Also, I would imagine doctors can “fire” patients for other reasons, such as a person who is not stopping smoking or not taking their diabetes meds and keeps ending up in the ER. I mean, doctors don’t have to take every frustrating patient that comes through their door. It’s not discrimination.

          • Ron Roy says:

            It’s certainly NOT OBEYING the oath they took. According to Supreme Court decisions when a person has a business open to the public they cannot discriminate. I believe a doctors practice is open to the public.

          • David says:

            As per usual Ron you are wrong. I’m not sure if you have ever been right about anything. I would definitely refuse to see you as a patient and would definitely be supported legally and by the college of physician and surgeons in doing so

          • Ron Roy says:

            Aha you admit you’re a quack.

          • David says:

            Your logic? How am I a quack?

          • Ron Roy says:

            Anyone that believes that the human body functions on drugs, and acts on that premise, is a quack.

          • David says:

            Actually Ron Roy, I am an ophthalmologist, so prescribing drugs is a very small part of my practice

          • David says:

            I have another patient like you and this is the letter you would receive from my office…as partially written by the medical college.

            Dear Ron Roy

            As we discussed at your appointment, my first obligation as a medical doctor is to provide quality care to all of my patients. In order to do this, you and I must willingly work together towards your health and well-being.

            It has become clear that because of your fantastical beliefs in the nature of disease and treatment, that there has been a breakdown of trust in our doctor-patient relationship. This has made it difficult for me to continue providing quality care to you.

            In these circumstances, I do not believe that it is in your best interest for me to continue as your doctor. I therefore regret to inform you that I will not be in a position to provide you with further medical services.

          • Ron Roy says:

            My answer to you would be: I see from your attitude that you’re nothing more than a shill for pharmaceutical companies so I’ll be more than happy to take my business / money elsewhere.

          • Ron Roy says:

            I wouldn’t want you as a doctor.

          • Kathy says:

            First do no harm means to help the patient take the less risky path. Vaccines are the less risky path.

            Again, antivaxers are not a protected class so this is not legally discrimination. You are choosing not to participate in public health programs.

          • AutismDadd says:

            First admit no harm, then call your lawyer

          • ciaparker2 says:

            Really? By law, you have to educate your child, it HAS to be in English, and you can’t send him or her to public school unless you give him a bunch of vaccines which have disabled millions. Unless he’s ALREADY vaccine-damaged and on an IEP, as one in ten schoolchildren is, and we’re working on closing the loophole that says damaged children are exempt from having to get further vaccines. That’s not coercion? (In Cal, Miss, and W Vir).

          • Kathy says:

            About 13% of American public school children have an IEP but almost none of them are vaccine injured. Keep in mind that, before you were born, there were likely just as many kids with special needs but they were simply kicked out of school.

            It is not coercion because you can homeschool if you do not buy into protecting your child from preventable diseases.

          • AutismDadd says:

            More rubbish kathy makes up.

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Nice bumper-sticker slogan. I was wondering when you’d get to that since you came back. Please document some evidence that vaccines are given without informed consent, and under “coercion”. Remember Jacobson vs Mass, 1905.

          • forvaccinesafety says:

            That old thing?

          • Sonja Henie says:

            Yeah, documentation is so last year!

          • Ron Roy says:

            150 injuries a year? The rate of autism alone is one in fifty.

          • Brian says:

            And about the same percentage of people have red hair… but like autism, hair color has nothing to do with vaccination and is irrelevant to the conversation.

          • Kathy says:

            Autism is not a vaccine injury. Plus, the current rate is 1:68.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Wrong AGAIN Kathy:A new government survey of parents
            suggests that 1 in 45 children, ages 3 through 17, have been diagnosed
            with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This is notably higher than the
            official government estimate of 1 in 68 American children with autism,
            by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

          • Kathy says:

            I notice you don’t like to your factoid. hm.

            “A new government survey of parents
            suggests that 1 in 45 children, ages 3 through 17, have been diagnosed
            with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This is notably higher than the
            official government estimate of 1 in 68 American children with autism,
            by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

            Because the new numbers come from a parent survey, they don’t replace
            the CDC’s 1-in-68 figure as the official estimate of autism prevalence
            in the United States.”

            https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/new-government-survey-pegs-autism-prevalence-1-45

          • Reality022 says:

            And the rate of “Ouchy Boo-Boos” is nine in ten… must be the wifi causing them.

          • Ron Roy says:

            Over 1900 up votes and that’s the best reply you can come up with? YOU’RE FIRED!

          • Proponent says:

            Ron Roy: “Over 1900 up votes and that’s the best reply you can come up with?”

            Geez.. you anti-vaxxers really are bad at maths and/or reading (/comprehending) that which is plainly in front of yous..

            Reality022 … 19169 Upvotes

          • Ron Roy says:

            I though the 19000 was somehow a mistake because I couldn’t believe that so many people would upvote stupid remarks.

          • Be fair, Proponent.

            19,169 is over 1,900 so RR is technically correct.

          • Boris Ogon says:

            150 injuries a year? The rate of autism alone is one in fifty.

            That’s a keeper.

          • Ron Roy says:

            I’m always amazed as to what extremes people will go to make a buck. Have you and Twisty looked into your ancestries? Do they go back to Josef Mengele? I’m assuming there has to be a genetic predisposition to kill and injure babies. Then again greed can buy a conscience.

          • Ivan Forsch says:

            I dunno about all that, but there is a genetic predisposition for autism.

            Reading your retarded, perserverant comments, it’s something you might consider.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Since vaccines don’t cause autism, that is not relevant.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Hey Ronny, Your anti-vaxx website listed this “evidence”

            1. “Correlation”
            2. “plausibility”
            3. “Lack of research”

            Did you even read it, Ron? It presented ZERO evidence. In response, here are a short this of studies that settled th issue long ago.

            It has been shown, conclusively, using millions of vaccinated and unvaccinated study subjects, that vaccines do not cause autism.

            –Jain et al. (2015) 95,000 children included in the JAMA study showing no connection between autism and vaccines.
            –In 1991, Howson et al. reviewed hundreds of vaccine safety studies, and it was repeatedly shown that vaccines didn’t cause autism
            –Taylor et al. (1999) studied 498 autistic children in UK showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
            –Madsen et al. (2002) studied 500,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development
            –Hviid et al. (2003) studied 450,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism based on thimerosol in vaccines
            –Miller et al. (2004) studied 100,000 children in the UK and and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on thimerosol in vaccines
            –DeStefano (2004) studied 2,500 children in the US showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
            –Honda et al. (2005) studied 300,000 people in Japan showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
            –Fombonne et al. (2006) studied 28,000 children in Canada showing no difference in autism rates and other developmental disorders based on vaccination
            –Robinson et al. (2010) studied autism rates among the Amish, which anti-vaxxers pretend don’t exist
            –Kuwaik et al. (2014) studied autism rates among those who had older siblings with autism, showing no difference based on vaccination even with genetic predispositions to autism

          • Ron Roy says:

            Autism wasn’t even mention in medical literature before massive vaccination campaigns started. The studies you mentioned were financed by the pharmaceutical industry. We’re the most vaccinated country in the world and we have the highest rates of autism and we have a higher mortality rate than most developed countries. We rank 27th in mortality rate.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Considering that vaccinations precedent germ theory, there are catalogs of disorders that were not named before vaccines. So What? ASD symptoms date back over 500 years.

            None of that matters since It has been shown, conclusively, using millions of vaccinated and unvaccinated study subjects, that vaccines do not cause autism.

          • Justthefacts says:

            Link 1 – “Further investigations at immunological, cellular, molecular, and genetic levels will allow researchers”
            This paper asks for more research
            Link 2 – Hannah Poling did not have. This is unrelated to autism.
            Link 3 – “A possible central mechanism” means another request for more research.
            Link 4 – Autism isn’t mentioned at all. You posted a lie.
            Link 5 – A list of REPORTED events around vaccinations which included “broken arms” and “stings”. A meaningless report that was throw out of a lawsuit as nonsense.
            Link 6 – This is a blog post that lies about a paper.
            Link 7 – “The propaganda dispensed by Public health care”. this is not a peer reviewed paper. It is only an anti-vaxx rant by two people who are not even researchers.
            Link 8- A case study of nine children without any background or study controls.

            Yes, you posted nonsense, rants and lies. I am sure you can post more nonsense rants and lies if you wanted to do it.

            Now I looks at your 8 paper and shot them down as the lies and nonsense that they are. IT”S YOU TURN TO ADDRESS MY PAPERS UNLESS YOU CONCEDE THEY ARE ACCURATE.

          • David says:

            Ha. You beat me to it. I was going to do same thing. Ron is a farce, he doesn’t read anything, just regurgitates everything from others websites

          • Ivan Forsch says:

            Well, Safeminds. I guess that settles it.

            Antivaxxers Ironically Fund Study That Shows No Link Between Vaccines and Autism
            http://www.medicaldaily.com/anti-vaxxers-ironically

            You know you’re dealing with a genuine freakig idiot if they’re still beating that dead horse.

        • Justthefacts says:

          I can! I can predict that 999,999 people will not be injured for every person injured making vaccinations one of the safest human activities ever invented!

          Does that answer your silly question?

    • Boris Ogon says:

      The Supreme Court admitted vaccines are unavoidably unsafe in the Bruesewitz v Wyeth decision.

      There is no better way to demonstrate poor reading skills* than to assert this. The “unavoidably unsafe” routine (which the Bruesewitzes were arguing for, because it could have entitled them to a case-by-case evaluation in Pennsylvania state court) was flatly rejected.

      Jesus, if you can’t keep track of the players, buy a program.

      * Speaking generously.

      • forvaccinesafety says:

        “On behalf of the Bruesewitz family, David Frederick argued that the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 only provides manufacturers with a case-by-case defense to design-defect claims. A manufacturer could be held liable, he argued, for side effects that were not “unavoidable”.
        http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/10/argument-recap-court-considers-vaccine-design-defect-liability/

        • Ivan Forsch says:

          Frederick argued, and that argument was rejected. He lost.

          It’s not really a difficult concept, dumbass.

          • forvaccinesafety says:

            Justice Sotomayor , with whom Justice Ginsburg joins, dissenting.

            ” Vaccine manufacturers have long been subject to a legal duty, rooted in basic principles of products liability law, to improve the designs of their vaccines in light of advances in science and technology. Until today, that duty was enforceable through a traditional state-law tort action for defective design. In holding that §22(b)(1) of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (Vaccine Act or Act), 42 U. S. C. §300aa–22(b)(1), pre-empts all design defect claims for injuries stemming from vaccines covered under the Act, the Court imposes its own bare policy preference over the considered judgment of Congress. In doing so, the Court excises 13 words from the statutory text, misconstrues the Act’s legislative history, and disturbs the careful balance Congress struck between compensating vaccine-injured children and stabilizing the childhood vaccine market. Its decision leaves a regulatory vacuum in which no one ensures that vaccine manufacturers adequately take account of scientific and technological advancements when designing or distributing their products. Because nothing in the text, structure, or legislative history of the Vaccine Act remotely suggests that Congress intended such a result, I respectfully dissent. “

          • Boris Ogon says:

            You seem to be having some trouble with the fact that the core assertion is trivially false. By implication, those who parrot it are either ignorant or mendacious.

          • Ivan Forsch says:

            The dissenting opinion is informative, but it ‘s the majority opinion that matters.

            In this case, the majority rejected “unavoidably unsafe.” Your pathetic attempt to try and rewrite the decision is almost laugh out loud funny.

        • Yes, that was the defense attempted – Frederick lost, as Ivan Said.

          Of course, your very own source says that even if Frederick had prevailed then it still wouldn’t mean that vaccine manufacturers had zero liability!

  13. Kathy says:

    I have seen the lawsuits and they all are written by some very colorful characters. They all grasp at straws to make their points. They assume the “CDC whisteblower” nonsense is real and vaccines are all bad and natural immunity is better than vaccine and has little risk. They assume they will win based on legal precedents that have little to do with vaccine mandates. It’s actually sad to read them because, even as a lay person, they are so obviously very poorly written. I now understand why it is very important to consider the place your attorney studied before you hire one. Pace school of law, and such schools, are not turning out the best and brightest.

    Keep in mind no legal challenge to vaccine mandates has ever won in USA. These will also lose.

  14. Proponent says:

    I Was Wrong About Vaccinations.. Forgive Me..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLPXMOxup18

    (Slightly off-topic.. however.. for the daily double of giggles.. here you go:

    “If I’m in an accident, I want to hear sirens, not wind-chimes.”
    – Sean Lock )

    • John Smith says:

      If im ever online researching vaccines, I want to see real doctors and scientists.. Not pathetic retired losers who actually look more pathetic to people who support vaccines. My favorite part is how some of you use cartoon pictures, Im guessing to lure small children? Im really not sure what you deranged wackjobs do in your spare time, but i really hope it isn’t more pathetic than this, because that would be really low.

      ps, did Ivan get his picture from a list of registered sex offenders?

    • David says:

      OK poison Proponent. Note how these features are changing over time. Even a year or so ago the tone of the article was fiercely confrontational to those of us who wish to be healthy and recover. Now far more nuanced and sympathetic. But your tone remains shrill and crude because you are losing.

      The vaccine program will soon end in its entirety by popular demand as the scientific fraud is revealed.

      Who will be the last guy to fail to see the obvious? Maybe it will be you.

      A special place must be reserved for those who choose to look past the murdered and maimed by this barbarism and choose to employ crude satire instead of looking at the topic head-on.

      • Brian says:

        Conspiracies, conspiracies, and more nonsensical conspiracies!

        • David says:

          Conspiracies??? Huh? Dead bodies, record levels of autism, record levels of cancer, almost universal bad viral panels (have you ever checked yours, Brian??) autoimmune hell so widespread no other nation has so many healthy issues and we outspend everyone of them. Conspiracy.

          Look at the facts and explain how could these compounds that have zero therapeutic value be a good idea? How can they be mandated?

          The article points out more and more parents are opting out at great sacrifice. Parents love their children so much they are home-schooling and saving their kids. And what do you say about this trend? And what do you say about the medical record associated so clearly with the injections??

          There is no debate here. Vaccines are a settled scandal. It was born in scandal and still exists in scandal. Nothing positive has ever come from the modern vaccine movement. This is why the crude senseless slaughter ison the way out and history will be very unkind to what we have done.

          Speak to the point Brian. Get educated.

          Unlike Proponent’s video–do you know great doctors who say exactly what the satire says only in real life–no parody. Why don’t all pediatricians say what my crowd says? Easy–because the system is corrupt and strong.

          Hillary has a lot of supporters too. She could even be President!! People will not open their eyes.

          Wake up Brian.

          • Brian says:

            Thanks for proving my point. You packed a lot of pro-disease conspiracies into that rant.

            The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated, so it’s obvious that vaccines don’t cause it.

          • David says:

            I asked you a lot of questions in good faith and you will not answer because you do not wish to join a discussion and defend your point of view. You wish to smear and insult.

            Duh. There is no study that shows the unvaccinated are as bad off as the vaccinated by any measurement. These studies are not done because it impeaches the medical mob.

            So one more time I will ask a question in good faith. Do you know a family that refused to vaccinate and have you observed the health of their children? Have you ever met someone who was not vaccinated and after developing some disease or health problem decided getting injected was the right thing to do after all? Please answer.

            I can throw at you thousands and literally hundreds of thousands of people who will scream to the heavens that getting those shots was the worst thing they have ever done. I am one such parent who says this.

          • Brian says:

            Thanks for proving my point, again!
            David claims “I asked you a lot of questions in good faith” after making such conspiracy whoppers as…

            “Vaccines are a settled scandal. It was born in scandal and still exists in scandal.”
            “Nothing positive has ever come from the modern vaccine movement” (polio, smallpox, rinderpest…)
            “This is why the crude senseless slaughter ison the way out and history will be very unkind to what we have done.”

            Perhaps he needs a bit of a refresher in basic logic and the meaning of “good faith”.

            David is an irrational conspiracy theorist, and pretty much by definition, won’t be swayed by facts or reality. But for the lurkers, let’s debunk some of his lies, again.
            “record levels of autism” – False. While diagnosis and awareness of autism has increased, there’s no evidence to indicate that the actual incidence of autism has substantially increased.
            “record levels of cancer” – This is a consequence of people not dying of other causes. Cancer disproportionately afflicts the elderly, and now with people living longer and longer, people are living long enough to develop cancer.
            “no other nation has so many healthy(sic) issues” – False, The U.S. has many health issues, especially surrounding obesity, but it’s still a lot healthier than most other countries.
            “Parents love their children so much they are home-schooling and saving their kids” False – Parents love their conspiracies so much that they are willing to risk their children’s education and health for them
            “There is no study that shows…” False – There are hundreds of studies.
            Why do anti-vaxxers lie so much?

          • Proponent says:

            Huh.. just quickly googled the terms; “unvaccinated develop autism at same rate as vaccinated” … and guess what?

            “A study that was published in the February 2014 issue of Autism,
            “Immunization uptake in younger siblings of children with autism
            spectrum disorder,” found that “the rates of autism spectrum disorder diagnosis did not differ between immunized and *nonimmunized younger sib groups.”

            And not surprisingly, there are many more stories like this.

            For example, the Autism Science Foundation highlights this common scenario:

            Tina Brown, mother of 2 boys with autism, decided not to vaccinate son Dylan because his brother Dalton had been inoculated and was subsequently diagnosed with autism. Sadly, even in the absence of vaccines Dylan demonstrated symptoms of autism at 4 months of age.

            An author and contributor to what is considered one of the most
            anti-vaccine websites there is also has a totally unvaccinated child
            with autism. Did that make her think about changing her views on
            vaccines? Although you would certainly think it would, as it has for
            other parents, it seems like she simply went from blaming her child’s
            vaccines to blaming those that she had gotten even before she was
            pregnant.”

            (Source: Very Well | “Both Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Children Can Have Autism” )

  15. John Smith says:

    LOL it’s hilarious that all the anonymous dirty shills on these horribly written blogs, Kinda like the ones directly below, cannot even prove to anyone that they don’t work at burger king.

  16. AutismDadd says:

    As we see PAN thinks vaccinated children are at risk from the unvaccinated. Says something significant about whar PAN knows about vaccines, that they don’t work very well.

    • Justthefacts says:

      Yep, that’s why everybody in California needs to get vaccinated!

      You learned something today, Troll!

      • AutismDadd says:

        But you didn’t. How can the vaccinated get KILLER DISEASES they are vaxxed for?

        • Justthefacts says:

          Because stupid trolls like you do what you can to disrupt herd immunity and kill people with your bad ideas.

          • Kathy says:

            Life is so much more pleasant now that I put on block. He’s my only disqus block! LOL

          • AutismDadd says:

            Kathy the fraud. Is afraid to face me because I can dish it out.

          • AutismDadd says:

            BUH…..WAH…..HA……Ha

          • AutismDadd says:

            Kathy is 100% phony. She blocked me because I asked tough questions and wouldn’t believe her made up evidence.

          • Justthefacts says:

            You are only a troll. There is nothing to ignore.

            Does being ignored hurt you? Does it remind you of your son?

            Maybe you should stop being a troll………..

        • Ken S. says:

          1) Some people cannot be vaccinated
          2) Some people do not become immune from vaccination
          3) Unimmunized people do not deserve to be punished with death by pro-disease cultists like you.

          • AutismDadd says:

            Read my question again dumbo

          • Ken S. says:

            Vaccination is not 100% effective and some people can’t be vaccinated anyway. Your premise relies on the assumption that all people can be vaccinated and that vaccination is expected to be 100% effective. Both of these assumptions are false.

    • Ken S. says:

      Can you count from 0 to 100?

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