WOMEN’S HEALTH: Sen. Barbara Boxer in conversation with Jodi Hicks of Planned Parenthood

CAPITOL WEEKLY PODCAST: This Special Episode of the Capitol Weekly Podcast was recorded live at Capitol Weekly’s Conference on Women’s Health which was held on Thursday, September 28, 2023

This is The Keynote– SEN. BARBARA BOXER in conversation with JODI HICKS of Planned Parenthood.

Introduced by Rich Ehisen of Capitol Weekly

Our regular feature, Who Had the Worst Week in California Politics? follows the Keynote.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

RICH EHISEN: Hello, everybody. All right, well, hello everybody. This is Capitol Weekly editor, Rich Ehisen. You are at our Health Conference keynote. Really excited today. We’ve got a really great presentation here for you. We are joined by Jodi Hicks, who’s the CEO and President of Planned Parenthood here in California in a conversation with former Senator Barbara Boxer. I can’t think of two women who know, or two people who know more about this issue than these two. And so we’re really excited to have them here to join us today for this conference. Thank you so much for joining us. I think we have a lot of really good stuff. So I’m gonna stop talking now. I’m gonna hand it over to Senator Boxer, and we’re gonna let them bring us up to speed on a lot of what is going on in the landscape as it applies in this day and age to abortion, here in California and also around the country. So, Senator Boxer, thank you so much for joining us. I’m gonna hand it off to you.

BARBARA BOXER: Well, I wanna thank you for this opportunity. This is an issue that is, I wanna say close to my heart. It’s IN my heart. And to have the chance to interview Jodi, which is what we’re going to do [chuckle], and maybe go back and forth a little bit. It’s a real honor because she’s on the front lines of this fight right now.

So, Jodi, first of all, I’m gonna talk a little bit about Dobbs, and then I’m gonna ask you my first question, but I do wanna thank you and your team for the work you do every day. I’m pretty still very close to Planned Parenthood in my community. I’m down South in the Coachella Valley, which is Palm Springs area. There’s been an enormous impact, post-Dobbs, on Planned Parenthood, and I wanted you to know that I’m helping them as much as I possibly can.

But you not only protect the health of women, and Jodi, I know you know this, but I wanna make sure everyone who’s listening who may be helping you and providing the service, it’s really also about the dignity of women. It’s about respect for women. It’s about the rights of women. And it’s not just about abortion. It’s about us and our ability to be respected, to make our own important life-changing decisions. And the way we make those decisions shouldn’t be about Mitch McConnell or somebody else standing beside you telling you what to do. It’s ridiculous and it’s wrong.

So before we get into the reality of post-Dobbs, which I’m gonna ask you a lot about, because I myself really what to know what’s happening on the ground, I wanted to revisit the Dobbs decision for this reason. Honestly I don’t think we talk enough about it because we really can’t forget how radical it was, how harmful it was, and it is. And how it does something that I never thought possible when I was coming up and that is taking away freedoms. We didn’t do that in America.

We know our founders, with all their terrible faults and mistakes, they knew they needed a “more perfect union.” That’s what I love about the preamble, which is my favorite part of the Constitution. I ask everyone to read it. It’s also President Obama’s favorite part, because we talk about a more perfect union and not making it less perfect, not taking away rights.

“It’s not the abortion issue, it’s the issue of how people view women.” – Sen. Barbara Boxer

So in the next two minutes, I’m gonna share a little bit of the Dobbs decision, and then I’m gonna ask you a little bit about what you think about the national scene, and then we’ll get to the California scene. So this decision written by Justice Alito, who I had the privilege of voting against, is so arrogant. It’s ignorant. It’s hateful. And that’s not just hyperbole at all. It’s true because Justice Alito in his decision, extols a 17th century jurist, who was involved in witch trials, Jodi. [laughter]

JODI HICKS: Yeah.

BB: And this jurist, Matthew Hale was born in the 1600’s. And even in those years, he was known as a woman hater, in those times. And Hale called abortion murder. He said, if a, listen to this, “If a woman claims rape, it was important to note if she tried to flee.” And if she was “Of good fame or evil fame.”

It’s still the mindset of Justice Alito who’s deciding these issues. Alito also quotes a judge from the 1200s who claimed that women were inferior to men. He said, “The only way to learn if a woman is lying about being pregnant is to… And I quote, “Grope her and lock her in a castle.” I’m quoting, “At her own cost.”

So what more could I say to quote from this decision that shows you the antagonism and the hatred toward women? That’s why I always say it’s not the abortion issue, it’s the issue of how people view women.  So, we have faced terrible, terrible, terrible headwinds. And this has caused chaos. And so I’m gonna start to ask you my questions now.

Do you believe, as I do, that regardless of all the state battles we face and that you are dealing with every day, we should never give up on a national bill to codify Roe v Wade?

JH: Well, thank you, first of all, Senator, let me start by saying how grateful I am to you and all the work that you have done. I mean my younger self would be so proud of myself that I’m even anywhere in a virtual room with you because you really served as a champion, but a real rock star and a feminist when many people were coming into making those decisions. And now we’re here fighting in a way that we didn’t ever imagine that we would have to before. And so you were definitely a part of the building blocks on which we stand in order to do that fight today. So I thank you for that.

“We can, and I’m sure we will talk about all the things that California has done to safeguard our own state and ensure that in California we represent a reproductive freedom state and ensure that we’re protecting those values. But if there’s not something done at the national level, there’s only so much a state like California can do.” – Jodi Hicks

The Dobbs decision was shocking, as you very eloquently pointed out. It was a rolling back of rights that we’ve never experienced before. And I’m not sure that the day after we knew exactly how to fight back against, but everything that we feared has come true in this year, post-Dobbs.

We’re looking at almost half the country that have instituted some type of ban on abortion, but also what the fallout of that means in terms of people seeking miscarriage management in terms of how far they’re willing to go. And it is about control. It is about how to have some supremist control over other people’s lives. And it will bleed into all different aspects of how people can make decisions and control the trajectory of their very future and their very destinies. And we’re seeing all of that play out.

And we can, and I’m sure we will talk about all the things that California has done to safeguard our own state and ensure that in California we represent a reproductive freedom state and ensure that we’re protecting those values. But if there’s not something done at the national level, there’s only so much a state like California can do. And so it is important that we’re looking at this long term that we’re not just accepting the fact that post-Dobbs every state’s doing their own thing, because we also know what they want to do. They want to pass a national ban.

BB: Yes.

JH: And there’s very little, even though we passed constitutional protections, all of that bleeds over into states’ rights as well. But there’s been, we’ve spent a year trying to figure out what it means for our providers, what it means for patients that now have to travel outside of the state they live in, in order to get basic healthcare. And we’re seeing that play out right now. So it’s very important that people keep that sort of future in mind that they need to fight for, which is a place where everyone has freedoms no matter where they live, and no matter what their zip code is.

BB: Well, Jodi, I think this is so important that you say this, because we are so lucky to be in this state. This state that understands respect toward all of our citizens, we’re the most diverse, we’re huge. We have a governor who gets it, a lieutenant governor gets it, a legislature that gets it. We are protected here, but it is so fragile. It’s fragile because of the national situation. And that’s why I wanted to focus on this for this beginning of our talk, because right now we’re taking care of business for women here, and we’re taking care of business for women who come here.

And I’m not asking you this now, I’m gonna ask you a little bit later the impacts of that. But right now, I wanna just for this next question, and then I’ll leave this subject, talk a little more about the importance of the national government, because obviously I served 10 years in the house, 24 years in the United States Senate, all of those years protecting Roe. It wasn’t until after I left that we had this horrific supreme court led by this arrogant man. In this decision, Alito do this heinous thing where as you point out, women in some states are in deep trouble, and women in states like ours can breathe a little bit.

“Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky is the author of the Life at Conception Act… It says, ‘Unborn children are persons under the 14th Amendment entitled to legal protection.’ So the legal beagles I know say that means abortion is murder from the second of conception.” -Sen. Barbara Boxer

And I say women and the people who support us and pregnant people. What I wanna put out there for you to comment on is this, I talked about the importance of making sure that we codify Roe v Wade, which as you know, it was a good common sense way to deal, which just for the benefit of everybody who may have forgotten what it was, [chuckle] ’cause it is no more basically said, “Before viability. It’s up to a woman.” After viability. Yes, the states could legislate and put on restrictions, however, the woman’s life and the woman’s health would always be protected.

Now… how wise?

So without getting into more of how I feel about that, because I was such a strong and am such a strong supporter and wanna see it done, the problem, and you hinted at this that we face is, it’s not just the good guys who are trying to codify national bills, it’s the bad guys who are trying to take away our rights. Even that we have under Dobbs. And I wanna just not be rhetorical on this. I wanna point out specifics. We already know, we’ve watched the Republican presidential debates, they wanna have a national ban at a certain number of weeks, which they’re so smart, they’re gonna decide what it is. And then California law is null and void, okay. Null and void. So we need to watch out 14 week bans, 12 week bans. We’ve seen what’s happening, six week bans, very frightening.

And then I’m gonna ask you about this. I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky is the author of the Life at Conception Act, and I’m gonna ask you to respond to it. It says, “Unborn children are persons under the 14th Amendment entitled to legal protection.” So the legal beagles I know say that means abortion is murder from the second of conception. And Rand Paul has said he is gonna fight for a vote on this.

So, here’s my specific question. I know you have your eye on this as well as everything happening in the States, but is National Planned Parenthood keeping an eye on these heinous bills that go even further than Dobbs? And are they connecting the dots between the election that’s coming up in the House and Senate and these bills, which is so heinous?

JH: I mean, yes and yes to all of it. I always like to think about Maya Angelou when she says, “When people show you who they are… ” [laughter]

BB: That’s who they are.

JH: “The first time.” And so when people are introducing bills like this, it’s because they’re testing the water and they’re seeing if they can get away with it. And if they can, that’s what they’ll do. And people have expressed their opinion about abortion in a way that we haven’t heard in 50 years. And that’s the only reason that some of these federal laws have not been passed as of yet. But they’re going to try and in every different way that they can. We’ve seen the playbook.

But it’s also important to understand that, it was one thing to say that we want to take away abortion rights. It’s another thing to actually implement what that means. And I don’t think that people that were even lukewarm about the issue envision a world by which women would be criminalized, doctors would be criminalized, people would be going to jail. We’ve already had that happen. We’ve already had a mother and her daughter who will have jail time for securing a medication abortion in the state that they live in. And doctors are facing, that’s one of the things we’ve had to do here in California: shore up that we in our state will not follow the rules of other states if they’re trying to come in our state. And for instance, if somebody travels to our state to secure services, that we won’t, and then subpoena health records, for instance.

Or what happens when they go back to their state if they do need to go to the doctor. And so it’s all of these things that are happening right now, people having even wanted pregnancies where they’re having miscarriages and can’t get management, can’t get treatment in the state that they live in and going to other states, and are those doctors able to treat them? And so it’s this domino effect of what’s happening.

And it is, it does come down to, at the national level, if we don’t ensure that we have protections for everyone, it affects everyone ultimately. We are lucky to be in California. There is no question people are… or I shouldn’t even say lucky, we have the right, and we’re grateful that we’re able to enjoy that here in California. But Californians will be impacted too. We already are, if people are coming into the state and how that impacts Californians trying to get care, how it impacts if people are, and there has already been one Attorney General who said that he will try and go after doctors that are treating patients. If patients are crossing the state border, what that could look like. None of that has been tested. We’re only a year out.

But we know that that’s what they want to do. They want to ultimately stop people’s rights from accessing abortion services across the nation. And so if they can only do it in their state, that’s what they’re doing now, if they can reach into another state and they find a way to do that, that’s what they’re going to do. And ultimately everybody should have that right no matter where they live. And so that’s what we have to fight for. So absolutely that is the North Star here in California. Even what we’re focusing on is national elections and looking at what’s happening at the national level, because it ultimately impacts us here in California.

BB: Well, that’s music to my ears because we have to fight this on every front. And we know – look, I was in my years where I was pregnant there was no Roe v Wade. That’s how old I am, even though I know you won’t believe it, but [laughter]… So I had to deal with friends who almost died. And I, as a matter of fact, in my memoir, I wrote about one of those cases. We know, people my age we’re witness to what happens.

“When Arizona paused their abortions, for instance, we definitely… San Diego, Palm Springs, that entire area, LA … certainly saw an increase. People driving across the border immediately, like within the week” – Jodi Hicks

A lot of young people when I was in the Congress, I would try to get them interested and they go… They took it for granted. But there’s a poem, it’s freedom. “Freedom is a hard won thing. You have to work for it, day and night for it, and every generation’s got to do it again.” And Jodi, you are that generation and the people beneath you younger and the young people. And so connecting the dots between who’s in Congress, who’s in the state legislature. These are all critical. We deserve the credit here for voting in pro-choice folks, you know? But if we sit back and we take it for granted, that’s a big mistake.

So I wanted to drill down a little bit on what it’s like on the ground now for Planned Parenthood in California. Can you get, because almost for me this is such a great moment ’cause I don’t know the details. What type of influx are you seeing? Is, are you seeing influxes from certain states? And what are those states? Are you, or can you tell us about that? How many people? What percentage of the healthcare you give, including medication abortion, are people from these other states? Can you paint the picture for us so we can see the load that California Planned Parenthood is carrying on its shoulders?  Because we’ve gotta help you.

JH: Yeah. First, definitely we have seen an impact. And it’s been interesting because there was predictors before and they’re not really shaping out to be exactly as predicted after. And there’s a lot of variables in place. Every health center – there’s over a hundred in California – we have seven affiliates that run them independently. But all of my affiliates have stated that they’ve all seen an increase. And so there’s been a Guttmacher Report that has said a 16% overall increase in abortion here in California.

But our experience has been what they’re seeing on the ground has been a little bit different. Some more, some may be a little bit less, but we also know… So, when Arizona paused their abortions, for instance, we definitely San Diego, Palm Springs, that entire area, LA … certainly saw an increase. People driving across the border immediately, like within the week, we were filling up or they were filling up with appointments.

But we also know that there’s an increase in, for instance, every city with an airport. And so where they try to predict where people would drive and go to the closest state, that’s not always true. If they have a cousin in San Jose, for instance, they’ll go to San Jose, and they’ll make an appointment there because they can, they know someone and they’re familiar. California has done some extraordinary things like we put together a website that is designed for people that are in a different state.

Because if you imagine the experience of a young person in Texas who has never traveled outside of the state of Texas, you wouldn’t necessarily know where to go to make that appointment. So you wouldn’t know like, “oh, let me call this one place,” because you wouldn’t know where the airport is or anything like that. And so California designed a website that allows you to just Google where in California and be really designed for somebody outside of the state to get information.

And we’ve seen a lot of traffic and we know from the data of who’s looking at that website that it’s been wildly successful for people to try and get care.

BB: Jodi, I had one quick one quick question on that. Which is, that’s very interesting that it’s not so predictable because people might go some other place that because they have a relative because it is a hard thing and you want to have a support system in place. This is really hard for people. So could I ask you about medication abortion? ’cause under the law now, what is the law? If somebody calls you from another state, can a doctor in California prescribe that and get that to that person in a non-abortion state?

JH: So the laws are murky. For the most part, we want people to come to the state of California.

“I think people would be sort of surprised to know that crisis pregnancy centers actually outnumber abortion health clinics in the state of California right now” – Jodi Hicks

They still, many, many people choose medication abortion over a surgical abortion just because of convenience and for all of the reasons that they want to. But we still, if they’re in within our borders, we can protect patients the best. But they still can get medication abortion in that way, even if they’re here and they want to do it via telehealth, sitting in a hotel room for instance. They can do that and it’s quite convenient.

BB: So they basically, sadly for them have to come to the state where it’s legal. So we’re getting to the point where we are gonna see if there were any questions. Jodi, you were gonna take that portion over. If we have questions, let’s go to those. If we don’t, I have a ton more for you.

JH: I don’t see any right now.

BB: Okay, then let’s go because I love it because these are all questions I’m interested in. I hope people are getting something out of this. So Attorney General Bonta has filed suit against a chain of so-called crisis pregnancy centers saying they are disseminating false information to basically coerce women away from abortion. And it appears that legislation on this topic can’t seem to pass, and I was wondering what your take is on that.

JH: Yeah, so we appreciate the Attorney General. He’s been steadfast in his work to protect abortion, but also go after people who are making it harder for people to access it. So the judicial system is tricky right now, especially as we know if we pass legislation that could wind its way to the Supreme Court, it’s concerning for a lot of people in this moment in time.

So we’re working a lot on the laws that we have, but the Attorney General is able to do what he can do and enforce the law right now. And unfortunately, I mean, I think people would be sort of surprised to know that crisis pregnancy centers actually outnumber abortion health clinics in the state of California right now. And oftentimes, there are many places that give good information and resources to people that need it, that for pregnant people that need it. But there’s also some of these that unfortunately give a lot of misinformation.

And that this is especially important in this moment. If people are traveling from out of state, they need to be secure, that they’re going to a place that’s going to give them the right information and actually provide services that they need. We always trust people to know what they need and not to be need or want or ever should be coerced or misinformed. If they’re looking for healthcare services, we trust that and want them to be able to access that. And so we’re grateful that the Attorney General is doing this work.

BB: Yeah, I mean, there’s a difference between giving information out, which is accurate. For example, here are the options you have. And in California, one of those, you can end this pregnancy and here’s the law in California. That’s fine. And let people decide, but it’s another thing to kind of withhold the information. We call that gag, a gag rule that we dealt with that for many, many years when I was in the Senate. Don’t gag people from telling the truth because it’s all about respect for women.

Look, I mean, as you know, we always would say pro-choice, and that’s sort of out of favor now, but to me, the reason I love the word choice is that it does give you this notion that we decide. You pro the individual. Not having someone else, since some supposed pregnancy center keep information is not good. So yeah, I also feel if in fact they’re giving misinformation, that’s about something that’s so important that good for the attorney general for doing that.

So I wanted to ask you, abortion has really galvanized the elector of late in shocking places, red states. So that’s sort of the only good news that I can suss out of this Dobbs decision is that it sort of woke people up to what’s going on politically in this country and who’s trying to take away their rights and who disrespects them and who will support their rights and who respects them. So do you see abortion becoming a driver of voter turnout in this election that’s coming up where the Senate leadership is at stake, the house leadership is at stake, and certainly all the other elections statewide, not just here, but all over the country? Do you see it being a driving force? And what groups do you think potentially could really make history by getting out there? Who really care about this?

JH: Yeah, I mean, I think everyone… I agree with you. I think it is the silver lining is people are saying the word abortion. They’re talking about it. It’s on every news channel. We passed a constitutional amendment last year, and it was the highest vote getting, anything on the ballot Prop One, in every county that it was on, it received the highest votes over other things. And 70% of the country agrees that people should have the right to access abortion. And so anytime we’ve seen, any time that voters have an opportunity to voice that opinion, that issue reproductive freedom wins when it’s on the ballot or when a candidate is talking about it. So I think it will continue to be that.

“There was only one place people could get an abortion in Mississippi before because the court was chipping away at Roe, chipping away at it. And so they had to have one clinic. Now they have none. And now doctors could go to jail.” – Sen. Barbara Boxer

I think that not just groups like Planned Parenthood, there’s a lot of reproductive justice groups that will be working Emily’s List and others to be working in this election. But I also think candidates are talking about it much more, and certainly using it to draw a distinction between their opponent and who will fight for freedoms and who won’t. And we’ve seen the difference. I actually think that I have to believe that while it was such a gut punch to lose Roe as a protection, I think the way that young people are fighting back right now, I think that we’ll actually have a better reproductive justice world in the future, where, Mississippi in the, where Dobbs originally took place, where that issue originally was born from, there’s only one clinic in the entire state.

So that state already had very little access to reproductive health services. And we didn’t talk about that. So I think we talk about it more. We talk about the importance of abortion, but in a way about why it’s so important for people to be the captain of their own ship and be able to make decisions that reflect their destinies and their futures.

And I think that this election will be, I think we’ll win because of that. I really do. And I think that we’ll continue taking those steps until we get to a place that we should have been fighting for, my generation should have been fighting for in a stronger way.

BB: Well, I think that really is important what you just said. I do think it’s important, and you are totally right. There was only one place people could get an abortion in Mississippi before because the court was chipping away at Roe, chipping away at it. And so they had to have one clinic.

Now they have none. And now doctors could go to jail.

So you’re absolutely right about Dobbs brought this to a head, but there are people who are suffering mightily. Not here in this great state, but all over the country, who… a 10-year-old girl forced, oh, I can’t even talk about it, forced to be a 10-year-old baby, has to have a baby. And also as you pointed out earlier, you are having a miscarriage and you can’t even get help because a doctor’s afraid he is gonna go to jail. He or she will go to jail.

So I would, I agree with you a 100% that this is gonna be a driver. I asked that question, hoping you would agree. I think it’s a driver. I think everyone, in the sound of our voice needs to understand the moment we are in right now, because it really is going to matter who is the President, who is in Congress, because we know, and this is why I’ll wrap it up now, ’cause we’re running out of time. I just put the ribbon on this conversation. The people on the other side will never stop.

And yes, some of them do it in the name of their own personal religion, which I totally respect that, I have a religion that I think is very important to me. I don’t put it on anybody else. That’s not what we’re supposed to do here in America. If you go back to our founders, the whole notion was freedom of religion. So don’t tell me what to do. I won’t tell you what to do. Let’s have some rules of the road that are fair. And that was called Roe v Wade.

But then you have others with a deep, I wanna just speak it because I’m unleashed and I’ve always been unleashed. But now more than ever, a deep antagonism and hatred of women’s equality and our ability to be trusted and respected. This is big, and this congress, whatever it looks like is going to matter.

Will Rand Paul’s bill move forward and get a vote where it says you’re guilty of murder at the second of conception if you take the pill?

So this is a moment, and again, I’m gonna finish where I started. Jodi, you are on the firing lines. I want you to know I’m always there for you. The reason I was so happy to do this is to reconnect again. We talk from time to time. And I would love to just have you wrap it up from your perspective. And then we’ll say goodbye to everybody and hope that even though they didn’t have any questions, we answered all of them for them. So why don’t you finish it up, Jodi.

JH: Yeah, thank you. And I do wanna just reiterate my gratitude for you. I know we talked even after Dobbs and you were kind enough to check on us and, and have just a lovely conversation that was inspiring. So it’s always great to hear from you.

If I can say last things, it’s just for everyone to keep doing what they’re doing. I’ve been inspired, again, I think the young people right now are just, honestly, they’re doing everything. They’re voting with their values. We’re seeing what they’re, how they’re voting and, and how they’re marching and speaking and telling their stories and really being open in a way that I wish I could’ve been when I was in my 20s. And I’m so proud of that.

But we’re also seeing the same playbook. And when we talk about how people wanna take away reproductive freedoms, it’s really just about taking away freedoms and it’s about control. And they don’t care that people are getting harmed and they will go after birth control if they can. And we’re seeing it play out in the LGBTQ communities right now, the way they’re going after trans kids. It’s the same exact playbook.

And so just remembering that if anyone loses a freedom, we all suffer and we have to continue that fight across the board. And it’s why it wasn’t okay for people to think that… I remember hearing right away that people, a lot of consultants, mostly men that didn’t think this would be a big issue because they didn’t think it was a kitchen table issue. And it was women that had to say economic justice is a huge part of reproductive justice. We fully understand what it means if we don’t have those choices and what that means whether people can go to college, whether they can be the people that they want to be. And the same is true in other communities, and we just collectively keep fighting on, and everybody vote their values.

BB: That’s it. Well, thank you everybody, all of you, for listening to us. And look, Planned Parenthood is where it’s at for me and always been most trusted. And if you look at a poll, no politician comes close to where Planned Parenthood ranks even with all the attacks. And you see why, you have someone like this leader here who speaks from the heart and gets it done on the ground. So thank you everybody.

JH: Thank you so much.

BB: Bye-bye.

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